hi this is Charles Hoskinson broadcasting from live warm sunny Colorado the IO HK office finally we have actual office here in Colorado we have people all around the world in about 20 countries we had a beautiful office in it or have an office in Japan Argentina but somehow someway despite the fact that I live here in Colorado we never managed to get an office and we finally built one I'm very glad we have still decorating still putting some things up got a lot of paintings statues and other things to put in but I'm glad to be here and thank you all for coming I promised that we'd make some announcements and talk about a few things before the end of the month and it is August 30th so it's definitely before the end of the month in fact I think we're Darryl E anyway let's talk about carga know it's what everybody knows and loves and cares about as do I in this is on the back of a very long and arduous workshop that we had 18 people flew out here to Colorado from all around the world including Duncan and our marketing team the rust team the Haskell teams formal methods people and we were trying to get a better sense of not only where are we going but the long term roadmap so everything that we think we can get done for Cardinal 2020 and as a result we were able to get some clarity about particular release cycles and dates we've been doing things in a very agile way so we tend to have development sprints and we do these sprints as offsets we can one team does actually weekly Sprint's on an extreme programming model all the way to the formal methods team which hasn't much longer time horizon and each team has its own cycle and so we mentioned with the rust client that there were three phases to the test that phase one was the self zone test net and that has been largely successful hundreds of bugs have been reported and fix the software has rapidly evolved and cleaned up and it's gotten to a point where it's quite stable and then the second phase is the networking test now where we actually have people connect to a unified test net and do some form of staking so everything that you'd want to do is Shelly done now for instead of on your PC on a distributed system and then the final is the incentivize test and then surprise test that is where we actually allow people to stake and get rewards and guess what those rewards will be real rewards should make real money from that so these are kind of the three phases of that roadmap and basically each and every one of them accomplishes different things from proving out the protocols to building up a community of stateful operators to allowing this to get a better sense of how these systems actually work at scale with real users behind them so now the time has come for the network test that and that will be shipping next month roughly around the middle to the third fourth week of the month so earliest would be September 15th but we may decide to push it a week or two later just depending upon testing and QA and a few factors about how the release cycle is going to work people tend to play off their vacations during the summertime and there's a lot of things that have to be worked out there but middle part of next month we should have the network test that and this will be the final test net before real sneaking begins and we're very excited about that now more significant announcement is going to be on the 28th September 20th I will be in Sofia Bulgaria for the two-year anniversary of the launch of byron and that's going to be a great day we're gonna hang out with fossil who's a one of our ambassadors and he's a great community member we really do love him I'll go plant some trees and we'll have some fun and then we'll talk about the card ah no 2020 roadmap of what do we anticipate we're going to do where are we going to go the project throughout 2020 and we're also going to announce more likely than not the date of the launch of the incentivized test net which effectively is the launch of Shelley because staking has begun and pool operators are running money is being made as a consequence of that operation and we'll talk about how we're going to roll that into the Haskell node and how that's going to upgrade an update so there's a lot of software a lot of infrastructure explorers the wallet back-end the exchange integration this new API is the v2 API system the rest software the house go software Daedalus itself has gone through a series of major upgrades updates one point six was the most significant since launch and there's more because we all have all that infrastructure for the delegation Center for searching sake pools for being able to register a state pool and so forth and then we have a lot of other things like goblins which is our testing framework we have another framework for monitoring and logging that we developed in so forth so it's really been an amazing ride and it's really incredible to see how much software we've actually written basically we had to go build an entire ecosystem from scratch and we learned a lot along the way we ruined a lot of papers along the way September is also a very special time for the science group within our organization we anticipate that over horse Hydra will finally be done in that timeframe what that effectively means is that as determinist paper in the or Boris research line four years ago we decided to embark on a journey to see if proof of stake was solvable or not more than half the cryptocurrency space held a fairly firm belief that proof of state was perpetual motion and could not be solved as a problem and there are still many people the cryptocurrencies face who hold that belief we kept an open mind and four years ago we started a research agenda to determine and in our opinion and the opinion of the academic community whether this was a fool's errand or if the problem could be solved and was it a Pyrrhic solution or wasn't a real solution that could actually be useful and run an entire system and throughout that journey we wrote papers like gkl or worse classic warhorse prose or horse Genesis or four scripts eNOS or horse PFT or horses or Horace casinos or or as Kronos but the most important paper and the entire series was our Hydra because that's when we shard and what we do is we take all the magic all the properties all the things you've come to know and love about or Boris and really the the incredible security properties of that protocol and we go from 1 to n meaning that we actually can have the performance we need to be a global scale system so it's a big moment for us the network test net is basically a near production grade of Cardno the Shelley and Byron combined and it's a culmination of use of knowledge and the 28th is a second year anniversary since we've been live so we've really gone through many ups and downs throughout those two years and being able to announce the main neck and the incentivize test methods things is a pretty magical thing and then to say that we can also capstone that with the end of the / Boris research agenda there's still be some things to clean up and papers to rewrite and peer review to go through but the final protocol in that series throughout Colorado 2020 is a pretty rewarding experience we solved a major problem pewter science and it's to the benefit of not just the Cardinal project but the entire industry as a whole we're also going to be holding the hackathon and University Wyoming it's gonna be a huge hackathon governor of Wyoming is going to be there I think around 500 developers or so forth and that's in the middle part of the month and we're going to be showing off the next major update of Plutus to this point where polluters does now feature complete at least for reaching parity with what you can do in the etherium ecosystem so from that point forward people will begin writing Plutus applications which we know will work on the Cardinal Network so we're extremely excited to be able to to show that off site to get developers we finished the flu this book already we have two classes on udemy that we've created one for Plutus one for Marlowe and we've already received an enormous amount of feedback now that research client was just as complicated as the research line for aurora's we started from first principles and what we've been able to do is save not only what is a good smart contract language which certainly was a hard question to answer but it was also how does a smart contract language live in a real application ecosystem how do you call them how do you need to rate them with often infrastructure where does the server to client come in to all of this what is the tooling need to look like how do we reuse as much feeling as possible how do we make that code portable to JavaScript or to web assembly so that we can maximize the ability to torque that code in many different places and how do we make sure that that can scale and live within our sharing strategy extremely hard things to do all while avoiding all the mistakes that the etherium ecosystem has made and also making what we've done at minimal to formal verification as well so that people can write formal specifications and verify that their contracts are correct according to those specifications so we don't have gouge acts or the parody bug or these types of things which result the loss of millions the billions of dollars we did this in a very principled way we did this with top computer scientists one of which has over 25,000 citations throughout his career vented multiple programming languages and work for pretty much every major company that matters and we did it without compromising a bit on language design principles Plutus is a state of the art language and we're very proud of that team and it's gonna be extremely exciting come September to show off the power of Plutus to real developers and watch them build real things with that platform in anticipation for its integration into Cardinal which will come shortly after we really Shelly so September is a big month for us it's a big month for the Cardinal ecosystem and it's a culmination of a very long long long road where we've done a lot it's been hard the industry as a whole has been hard yeah watching the markets do what they've done watching the ups and downs I I'm the first to admit it's been disheartening especially because it caused a lot of good people to turn a bit negative and bitter because they lost a lot of money but this is not a sin of Cardinal this is a sin of the industry in general but many people kept the faith they kept going strong and that's why we're going to Bulgaria because all the while when these markets were hammered and all the while when the industry was going through a downturn fossil and his friends on Bulgaria were planting trees and were very passionate about the future trees that take decades to grow and trees that will live for centuries and that's the point of this project and the engineering that we do at AI ohk we do not design things for tomorrow we design things for next century and so part of that is process and part of that is strong principles and part of that is good foundations we didn't take short and say let's just take some proof of state protocol that we think may work modify it a bit maybe write an academic paper throw some math on it gilli implemented six months we started from first principles and asked what is a ledger what should the rules be what is consensus and how does that matter to our industry and we worked our way systematically paper after paper after paper involving the academic community along the way as a checkpoint a sanity check and a third-party opinion that was objective of whether the things we were doing were reasonable or not this road is often fraught with delays and setbacks and all kinds of frustrations and disappointments and this road may also take you in directions you didn't anticipate to go on when you first started but it's the only road that you can take if your intention is to build a world financial operating system because this is a process not a person it's not a cult of personality it's not a particular company it's a methodology than anyone anywhere in the world can follow and years into the future Iowa came may or may not be here it's a community decision but the process will be here and the community will demand that for every new protocol we integrate whether it be multi-party computation protocols or serology protocols or enhancements to core infrastructure and what we've now left behind as a consequence of the work we've done now since 2015 has been hundreds of pages of formal method documents tens of thousands of lines of code more than 40 papers and an acknowledgement that the things we have designed really can scale and build to a global scale financial operating system and we're future proofing it Carano 2020 is extremely exciting and September we're going to talk about it at the Vulgaria event we'll make an announcement of the particular place in Sofia will be in the particular time and you love to see as many people as possible there but that's just a milestone and there's many more to come so anyway that was the announcement for the end of August the incentives the network test that is coming in in September mid-september more likely than not the exact date will be announced in just a little bit but if it's not mid-september be the third week or fourth week but not too much beyond that and the Bulgaria event will announce when the incentivize test met will begin which is effectively shallot it'll have the wallet back-end it'll have Daedalus it'll have the rust node and a lot of magic behind it and real money being made and then it's something that'll merge into the Haskell system when it upgrades and that money will be transferred over so we'll make an announcement September 28th of exactly when that date is going to be for that to begin and then we'll just start getting on to go go and catch up there and September you guys are also going to see the one-week hackathon well we've made multiple announcements about it I believe it's September 20th I University of Wyoming in Laramie and we'd love to see you there and we'd love you to see you guys right simply be smart contracts at Marlowe's of our contracts and really get a sense of the magic that we've put there it's been a hard project to go from aspirational high-risk high-return research where we could potentially do everything to actually build something real that innovates and changes our entire industry and I'm incredibly proud with 200 people at i/o HK and all of our commercial partners and the third-party firms who have worked with us very closely throughout this journey over the last four years and assisted us throughout this journey to get to a point where we now have something significant and real and revolutionary and innovative that not just leaves a good foundation but something that we know can be iterated to something that will fundamentally change our entire industry and make us the world leader in terms of cryptocurrency technology and we did all of this while maintaining our principles that was the most important part to prove that it can be done so I appreciate everybody's patience I appreciate everybody sticking along with us throughout this long road and it's finally coming to an end and I can see the light at the end of the tunnel for Shelley and I'm really glad we finally got there yeah and it's gonna be really exciting to see you guys running snake pools it's gonna be really exciting to see the industry develop around those and it's gonna be really to see what type of innovation and infrastructure can be put together so so thank you so much for all of that anyway as it is an AMA I figure I'll take a few questions so let's let's go ahead and take a look what you guys have Charles what do you think about augur and Sylvia McCauley says he self italics trilemma it can soul scale to thousands of transactions and is secure and decentralized they use VRS to the other of course they do is Sylvia Macaulay invented the technique Algren is great science great team great people the mid moment that they announce that they're actually going to enter the space I tweeted it's finally good to have some good competition and I'm I stand by that statement I think that over the next 5-10 years they'll be around just like us and while they're taking a different approach their approach does seem to have a lot of merit legitimacy behind it and I think they have a good team of people to help them execute and get there this frankly should be the standard we should never have questions about whether the technology or science works or if the protocols are sound or not that should be axiomatic we should have a situation where those protocols we know they work and we're debating commercial strategy and execution and customer acquisition these types of things unfortunately because of the complexity and frankly the lack of domain expertise of the people running these projects perhaps some dunning-kruger we are in a position where the industry as a whole has to doubt whether protocols can actually do what they claim so it's nice to have competitors who we feel are just as good of an approach even though we disagree with the approaches we think there's legitimate things can that could be done differently but at least we don't challenge that they know what they're doing and I'll Graham fits into that category that said I think we're ahead of them by far at least by two years thanks to the fact we started sooner we've written far far more papers and frankly we have a much larger science team and we have a more holistic view of what a cryptocurrency ecosystem requires from interoperability to a treasury system to voting system in addition to how we intend on doing charting and we're a world leader interoperability with respect to proof of stake side chains and deep the Powell's proof of work site rates so given we've we have those advantages it's gonna be hard for them to compete that's if we're glad they're in this space because we can learn from them just as much as they can learn from us okay what else we got here and by the way I'm wearing a yukata say in formal Japanese dress men Japan wear from time to time how is cena's progressing well government's bill came with privacy great paper were very happy about it and we love build product on it it's not in scope for card honor we did learn a lot though about how to make these systems private which are quite helpful gives us a longer time horizon for things beyond 2020 and I love these comments from Eugene guys try to understand I was a big fan of Cardinal for years I really don't care up the money I lose but for god this guy is no more than a big scam you know people always say that and they never qualify those statements you know I remember Paul Thomas used to say tell them what you're gonna do do it and tell them what you don't you did so we told everybody what we're gonna do we said we're gonna do a high-risk high-return research project and we're gonna use a science-based approach and we're gonna go use formal methods these are among the slowest and most difficult things you can do in terms of engineering and it's very difficult to be to start up and build products this way so we said we were going to go do that give it our best shot and we went did it and does he deny that we wrote papers does he deny that formal specifications exist and if so which ones are bad which papers are good which ones are they all bad none of these papers exists with the peer reviews all lie we didn't go to the CCS and crypto and Europe we never attended any of these conferences we didn't get accepted even though that's all provably false ok well then he's saying those things have no commercial value ok maybe that's a fair argument ok well that's the formal specs I guess they have no commercial value either ok what about all the code we've written Haskell code that doesn't exist the Ross code that doesn't exist Daedalus that doesn't exist the many updates the system we did the 30 plus exchanges were listed on that doesn't exist take heed that the initial funding for the project was around 64 million give or take and it's sitting above a billion dollar capitalization so for the seed to reduce to this we're still significantly above that so the people who took the risk of launching the system they did fine but that doesn't exist I guess in his world so the only thing that does exist is that everything in our industry went to the moon and it all came collapsing down by 90% if not more and people lost money so yeah that happened Azra deadlines deadlines slip all the time especially when you're doing crazy difficult things that have never been done before unless you can point to a single project a single scientific endeavor where new things have been done that people were able to perfectly estimate the complexity meanwhile we've also changed our engineering team we went from Sara Kelton in-house team and we had to go through a huge retooling you transition for that but you see there's this value and there's this idea that somehow when we say we're going to innovate and we're gonna build something for the future that because the value hasn't been realized yet for billions of people then it's now a scam our whole argument is if you're going to build something that a billion people are going to use and it's gonna be used for 50 years you should do it carefully and spend some thought about it and utilize the best tools techniques and people available and try to get them all on board and we did we got to the peer review circles on board we got many universities on board many different companies on board and we were very transparent about this every day every step of the way all of our code is open sources it's a repo but we're a scam because you didn't make money who did and where would you make the money from let's say your stuff goes way up and you sell it somebody had to buy it well if there's no natural use for it if there's no natural consumption for it you just traded one speculator for another so while you may have made money someone else perhaps did the only way this industry as a whole will be legitimate is if the products in this industry are useful and I've made the argument time and again that the products are not useful not yet they do certain things well and if your only goal is to use it as a store of value in a safe way of moving money to have a capital controls Bitcoin has already solved that problem and it's good enough but if your goal is to build a world fun inch operating system that accounts for metadata identity compliance contingent settlement contracts that is self enforcing admissible in court and can be used to run an economy whether it be a small economy like Georgia or a large economy like China no one in our entire industry has even come an inch closer to that and we're the only project that thought about these things and talked to people like governments heads of state and other people and got a sense of what are the business requirements what are the technical requirements what must these protocols do holistically not just one component where somebody wrote a protocol and said here's our white paper look how magical and smart we are we had to look at everything the ledger rules the network rules the consensus rules the cryptography the level of privacy the structure of transactions how governance needs to work how do you do software updates who's in charge of those software updates what must the improvement proposal process look like time and again and these are easy things these are things done in a day these are things that are predictable and they'll instantly be finished now they're incredibly different difficult every single one of them and together it's a Manhattan Project it's an Apollo project because if we get it right the whole world economy will be riding on something like this ledger billions of people billions of transactions every single day carrying fuel Attili trillions of dollars of value so when is it useful when it's done when is it done when is art done it's never done it's just a series of progressions and iterations or it gets gradually more useful gradually more functional gradually more advanced over time and you wake up and you say wow it's a lot better today than it was last year and wow it was a lot better today than it was five years ago just like the Internet itself the internet doesn't radically change everyday you don't wake up and open up Chrome and say wow and everything's different but if you look at a web browser 15 years ago and what a page is 15 years ago and you compare it to today is it's unbelievable difference and that's exactly what this movement is all about its gradual all hard-fought iterations step by step in a very unsexy way towards a product that will eventually create the new Amazons the new Google's the new Facebook's the new banks of the future and liberate mankind from centralized rule and so we said if we're going to do this the only way we can do this is with principles without a cult of personality and with processes over people that's the only way that's reasonable or else you will dissent from training one dictator for another dictator so if you think that's a scam or we didn't produce anything useful please do tell us who has please do tell us who execute it and who got it done which system actually works that you think is so much better and if your only argument is that people have made more money the price is higher more liquidity that you've already lost because that's not the game you've played as I said tell them what you're going to do do it and then tell them what you did and we said we're going to go do high-risk high-return research and solve major problems and build a world scale system and we're getting to a point where we have actually started accomplishing the foundations of that for a five-year period this is an unbelievable accomplishment for a start-up to do that and do it as a decentralized company real time while people bark at them in a very competitive industry it's never been done in the history of any company and I'm very proud of that so good luck to you Eugene hi Charles how long will the test never run before moving to the main man thanks for update sir it'll make that announcement on the 28th and hopefully you guys stay tuned hi Charles is Phil waddler still working at Iowa Jay absolutely every day and actually he's training some graduate students as well we're working on IOH tape projects is involved I which K keeps scaling up is writing papers too with us learning data structures and algorithms this semester I'd love to see from a technological perspective read Okamoto x' functional data structures it was his dissertation but there's now a book floating around you can learn about finger trees and so forth Nick start you do a better job at managing expectations though that's definitely true you know we're not so good at expectation management the key is to say to differentiate two things one is can the technology do X from will the technology actually do X will it be used for X so the problem we have in our industry is that nobody started from a first principles approach they just all copied Satoshi and kept making copies of copies of copies and then this innovated here and there for little things but they never really seriously thought about well how do these systems reach a scale of billions of people and can they reach a scale with doings of people and it turns out that that's a computer science problem it's not a business problem it's an unknown and we're getting to a point where we start to understand enough of the science that we do believe these systems can scale to that point ok so now that we know they can scale at that point there's an open question of well what is the business model to bring those users into the ecosystem to get that type of line so just because something can do something doesn't mean it will do that thing or and from an economic viewpoint that is a sustainable way so you then must look at the business model and innovate there so you have to do both of these at the same time and our belief is that Enterprise Ledger's are a great way especially in the developing world bringing millions of new users into our space to get that type of transaction volume the other ways to save the user experience of the system for the domains it's in for example payments is so much better than the incumbent user experience for some group of people that they will naturally migrate over that's a dangerous thing to do because the user experience for payment systems is already pretty good for most people in the development world so it's a slippery thing and what ends up happening is you experiment and you know just looking at the etherium ecosystem there's been a lot of great experiments I had a great opportunity to go to F Berlin it was by complete accident I didn't even know it was going on I was Britten Berlin to see the Beethoven's 9th at the Brandenburg Gate and earlier that day I was just walking through the park and I ran into some people wearing aetherium t-shirts and I said wow that's cool were you guys going and they said oh for aetherium Berlin they thought I was invited I didn't even know about it so I said I'll go with you and just see what it's all about so I walked up and I talked to the person at the front and I said can I talk to the conference organiser and they said what's this about I said I'll just tell them it's me the little who I am the lady came out and she said she was a consensus gal I think and she was little rumbling said no need to make a meme out of it we'll let you I said okay thank you very much you're very kind and I had a chance to walk around the entire summit which was fun and it just it was great because there was all these wonderful developers there who were quite passionate not about aetherium they were passionate about building things that solve real problems and they looked at a theorem as a means to an end it's decentralized infrastructure but at the end of the day you could just change the vocabulary and say foo coin you could project X and they would be just as passionate because they didn't wake up and say well our goal here is to make vitalik and Joe rich their goal here is to change the world and as long as you have that and you have a group of people no matter if it's in Berlin Denver or elsewhere you you're going to do that you're gonna have those billions of transactions the problem is the infrastructure just isn't where it needs to be so part of the Cardinal project was proving to the world that it can there and I think we have made a substantial contribution as have others in the space to show that that's possible and we're building it and implementing it and then it's a game of getting those people in and that's really really hard and so anybody's guess who win we have a strategy other people have a strategy it wasn't too long ago that Nikita was the king of all phones in Blackberry was the king of all phones and where are they now and apples right now at the top 10 years they could be just like the Kea so markets are finicky things Charles how far apart or card out oh and a theorem relation to all the cardones plant I keep hearing if people say cardano's at least two years behind the theorem at least I'd actually already the opposite I'd say the theorems two years behind us because I believe they have to invent a lot of protocols which we've already invented they have to implement them and get them installed in a system that's already running that's much bigger than our system imagine changing the wheels on a car where your cars driving that's not really hard to do right now imagine if you're trying to change the wheels on a semi-truck as opposed to a smaller car and all of them that's the problem with etherium so they have some ideas about sharding the etherium 2.0 it's gonna take a while they have to put in some base infrastructure and then all these other things and there's directions they're taking that we're not taking for example they've abandoned the idea of Unchained governance where as we would like to do something like that even the European Union's paying us money to explore that through the horizons project horizons 2020 we have a we have a grant from privilege and so we have our protocols where they need to be or they're rapidly getting there and the implementation time is not significant so I would argue we're ahead of them we have a more sophisticated smart contract model that is a superset of their model the theorem interoperability is not hard to do there's different ways they'll accommodate it and we actually support not one but two accounting systems instead of ut'fo and in theory of style accountants it would be very easy for us to put yella into that system we're already working with a third party firm to build a pluggable version of yella to to play around with and you know that in itself is aetherium support so if we already have their smart contracts but then we have better smart contracts that are much more secure and much more sensible we have a great sharding strategy that's validated by peer review and we have a great interoperability strategy which had argues better plus we have a way of handling on chain governments that I would argue significantly better than there is how the hell are they two years ahead of me especially one that takes them longer to upgrade than it takes me okay but everybody's got an opinion Charles do you pay attention to what your competitors are doing and are able to orient and respond accordingly are you locked into your own strategy we pay attention every single day which my travel so much generally it's why we talked a lot of people our competitors are mostly open source and they mostly live within a small ecosystem which means they tell us usually ahead of time what they're doing and they put it together every boat it's really easy for us to read give up repositories it's it's not hard and we've known pretty much everybody I've been in this space for eight years and over that course of time it's given me the opportunity to get to know basically everybody's philosophy where they're at where they're not at and we see them at the academic side the engineering side that on non engineering side and in all cases we've learned a lot so yes we do pay a lot of attention to them and we do learn from them from time to time every now and then you see some interesting things every now and then it sees derivative work for example fly client is based on our work on get the house and they made some improvements we have our own improvements in other cases things just come out of nowhere and like avalanche you know they say wow that's a pretty interesting protocol and you know you adapt to it accordingly but don't want to short one of our biggest frustrations is that people tend to be innovating a lot of certain things like sharded protocols and there's a lot of rapid change this one and that one and so forth but then they're not really doing a lot of work on network stacks or these types of things which actually have to be solved if you want to achieve high throughput scale so there's a frustrating asymmetry or a lack of focus the best analogy is imagine a bodybuilder where they only worked on the upper body and then kind of ignored the abs the butt the legs because big burly guy come out it was on a very skinny frame you know you just say this is terrible it's not a right proportion and unfortunately that's where the industry is at everybody has a big bicep or a big leg or something but they don't have the indent body and that's quite unfortunate Charles why not use time locking rewards and penalties for staking because you don't use incentives to solve fundamental problems in your protocol protocol should work sans incentives incentives just make people use the cross we don't want to go result nothing in steak or lager age using blocking or these same things it's not necessary for our model it's a key differentiator between us and Casper and so Vitalik can go and play around with his stuff we have a very strong difference of opinion is Haskell's pathway to test that different to rust what's nice about rust is rust is really a great Avenue for us to an incredibly agile way so it cases weekly you wrap it updates to basically deploy incredibly close protocols to what would be in production and in itself then its own cryptocurrency and we could we could certainly launch with that but it very least what we'd like to do is make sure that we have a high density of state pools from when we fork the main net to Hamilton skies so Haskell will run and run and run and run and run and at some point now it has all the Shelley stuff somewhere between when the Shelley stuff is done and when we actually turn that on in the main net on the haskell side there's going to be this haskell test net which is basically what we're going to turn on up here and that is going to be after the rest side so the rest side is here state pools are coming online and we're verifying or boris does what we think it does we think it does you know we're the first people in the world to do this so we should probably do it to save space and then this is a whole group of people and the longer it runs the larger that group gets that at some point the haskell network turns on and they say we're going to take our infrastructure and redeploy it down here they'll take a little bit of retooling not a lot and then they get a guarantee that when it gets turned on here that everything just works day one so that's a different type of test net than here this is basically verifying what we think is true is true for production this is to build an ecosystem test the core protocols in a safe space it turns out you can pay people to do that and it's pretty amazing you know they can get steak rewards up here we'll have some cool announcements about that soon so three different levels in that respect and this is how it should all be done because if you do it just on the main net basically what you're saying is there's going to come a day when we flip the switch and we hope to god everything works and if it doesn't well you know the ship sinks and don't do that you know it's much more sensible to do things at stage phase this way and it turns out you can have your cake and eat it too in the cryptocurrency space so that's pretty cool hey Charles does anyone go to sell small sneaking devices display with this summit we have had a lot of discussions with Marcus and the Cardinal foundation and our goal is to have a reference and our goal is to see if we can get third party merchants to carry that reference like QuickBooks supreme and others because it would be so cool to see Coronado running on a Raspberry Pi guys here's the value of research at the end of the day Bitcoin consumes more power than most small countries now I can run something that's much faster 10 times faster 100 times faster hundred times more decentralized if not more and much more sustainable for about the power of a large house it'll always be the power of a large house maybe two large homes and it gets more efficient over time Bitcoin will never get more efficient any improvements in the Asics any improvements in energy production just means that basically people consume more to build more miners they basically scale up it's connected to the price so if Bitcoin continues to be commercially successful it continues to consume enormous amounts of electricity and at some point the electricity of larger countries perhaps Italy if its global scale successful and there's no way to stop that so the curve looks like this and my curve is this and that's that so it's in our best interest to demonstrate it works on a Raspberry Pi it's in our business interest to demonstrate it works on a rock pie or small own computer you know a little compute stick or a little guy like this if it does it should accomplish it shows you the power of science that we get the same benefit off of a house worth of power that they're getting up for countries worth of power that's magic it's the only science can give you that Daedalus was awful in the beginning but now with the update I love it a lot of people do it's only gonna get better that's the value of iterative improvement never give up just keep going and going and going and one day you wake up and it's where it needs to be Charles you talked so much about being innovative papers in such what is osis running fully working POS and on chain governance for a year scientists in works in real world why not card on all different approaches and we're solving different problems good for that we do work with hyper ledger and we do look at a lot of different Enterprise projects what paper from Hydra is left to release in the ores line and what does it deal is after Hydra that much else only probably revisions of old papers Charles are you still doing heat oh off and on although in our company we have a heat of quito channel there's like 30 people in it my HR director just joint interoperability is one of the your key pillars or are there any blockchain protocols you will simply not engage with no we'll work with anybody including Neos and etherium others you know at the end of the day there's my personal feelings but these are protocols used by people and people or people and whether they're wearing no shirt or aetherium shirt or a kaizo shirt there's still people and they're still in our ecosystem as a consequence it's valuable to work with them where and when it makes sense now these ecosystems having to be led by egomaniacs that whole personal grudges or basically make decisions arbitrarily as opposed to based on what's best for their users well then that's the loss of that ecosystem but from our side we're willing to work with anybody are those Kachina dolls in the table in the window yes of course I have many teaching adults and I actually have even a plague doctor see a Venetian plague doctor what it I was at alla coming along quite well I believe we'll be signing a contract with the deal get pretty soon for a pilot making announcements in turn all three countries are looking good we are deploying it why the beard you're not getting enough sleep lately I like my beard too compared sexy beard the salt is real maybe for you can we stick with in your eye this is a this is a quarter desire you're a team and I've heard from the ROI team that they will permit staking so you'll have to specifically speak to Nico and Sebastien but I think it is within the roadmap never get to meet health any yes how was a great guy and I really miss him that's it for one more we're almost done that's a good one Charles Hardin is hurt over the last four years for you you know we knew when we started this project that it was kind of a crazy project because we were trying to do too much I mean when you think about any of these challenge problems scalability interoperability sustainability they're huge the weather is why quesos was able to shift something so quickly and it wasn't even quickly it was years of work was they said let's focus on governance and they put a lot of work into that and they took a lot of stuff thought about it for carefully is it this is where the network is going to be this is what we're gonna do with the POS and so forth but they weren't really trying to push the envelope there and the core argument was well you know if we have a good governance system we will have the means when time permitting to upgrade the system to this new state that will be amazing and awesome our belief was that these things were still interconnected with each other that you really do need to make a baseline set of innovations and all of them before you start actually architecting into climbing a system and that required us then to write lots of papers rate lots of prototypes and do enormous amount of things that were not simple they were very hard in their own right a lot of cryptography like key evolving signatures and verified random functions and these things had to be right written from scratch because there's just no commercial great implementations that were able to be used we had to develop completely new protocols for almost every stack the system we had to create dsls through a ledger rules we had to do all these things that had never been done before in our industry you know much less anywhere else and as a consequence it did take an enormous amount of schooling time yeah yet we've gotten to a point where we've made major innovations in all three categories so our part of the four years was just keeping the belief that would be able to actually get to a point where we could look back and say it was worth the effort the problem with research is that you don't get a guarantee when you start research that it's going to work you know if you're a mathematician you say I'm going to go solve this problem you know like argues conjecture or the Goldbach conjecture or something you don't start and say well if I spend ten years on this problem I'm guaranteed to get a paper out of it solve it or make meaningful progress is useful to everybody it's entirely possible that you could spend ten years get nowhere it's entirely possible to spend ten years and discover it can't be solved for ten years and discover it's not even true it's happened to more than one mathematician that is research in a nutshell for every direction that worked there's a hundred that didn't work so it was incredibly frustrating including in the beginning when we were really trying to sort things out and think about things carefully to try to find a path that we knew would be productive and get us where we wanted to go it was very risky and managing it when we had discovered that path was even harder because what we had high confidence that the path would eventually bear fruit we knew it'd take a long time but we couldn't quantify what a long time would be it was entirely possible that it'd be six months entirely possibly two years and we just kept building and building and making best effort and estimating things and we weren't so good in the beginning at estimates and now we're in a position where things are moving along quite well quite predictably weekly reports here and there and what we think is true about velocity and delivery is has been true at least for the last year and that's been good but it's been very very challenging for us to to get to that point and deeply frustrating at that point because it was a collective frustration it wasn't just me and wasn't just I which K it was ICF it was Amer go in our ecosystem and our credibility as engineers and scientists for every delay it meant that there was a group of people who get to say hi I told you so these people have no idea what they're doing they can't deliver they're idiots meanwhile we're sitting there staring at incredibly elegant code lots of math lots of papers and getting objective validation that the things we're doing are real it's almost as if you're building a home and you've built the walls and you've painted you set up all these things but you're not quite done yet you're waiting on something and then somebody comes by and challenges that you've ever even started building the home or you have no idea how to build a home you don't go to somebody waiting on a permit to do something and for some reason they just didn't get it and then tell them that because that hurdle came up they're incompetent or they don't know what they're doing I unfortunately over the last four years this has happened a lot and continues to happen so that's been the that's been the greatest frustration second-greatest was the Cardinal foundation Michael Parsons in particular there has never been a person or a time in my life that I worked with that so deeply frustrated me than that you know they had a clear understanding of what they were responsible for doing and they just decided not to do it they took the money to do it they were legally obligated to do it there were potential criminal consequences it's not doing it yet despite all of that didn't do it and we spent years working with them trying to get them into a position where they could execute and do things and they decided not to this was life and it hurt the Cardinal ecosystem it's good that things are getting back on track but remember if something takes two years you can't just magically accelerate it and make it happen in six months so while they're getting back on track there's they're behind on certain things and it's deeply frustrating because they shouldn't be behind and Frank frankly they should be ahead they should be running with the Bulls but they're not and that was really frustrating as well anyway DeMarcus no announcement you you piece of yeah that's another example of the space people just say things you have a senior research fellow in my field of law are you doing any legal research at the moment yes to be announced later Charles if you did another TED talk talk what topic you would choose I do to the same talk but I tell about what I learned you know that was an aspirational talk I hadn't run around the world and tried to convince people to do it and I would love to do it after a cholera and card on upshift are successful maybe 2025 or something like that or actually 2024 be nice because I did that TED talk and 2014 and it'd be great to do it ten years later what did we learn you know what did we accomplish and at that point I think actually will accomplish rather substantial corpus of work and it would be it would be so amazing to see you know what was the good the bad the ugly and how right was I as a young idiot didn't expect it from Charles but not my food then you don't know me sorry I'm getting better with Twitter but the animes are still fun go on give me a good question to end on get seven minutes that's actually a good question I decide which gay hand down card Otto to the community after the government system has been implemented what does that look like so basically the idea is that you kind of do governance and stages while I admire what chaos is done you know I think there's actually some novel things there really these systems live and die based upon the level of participation that are in them so it does not matter if you have the most elegant voting system of the world with major cryptographic properties and great magic behind them the end of day these systems are only going to be useful if they have high participation because then you can make a good argument that you have a true democratic mandate once the stakeholders imagine as an analogy a presidential election where the president is only elected by five percent of the vote would you feel like this person is a legitimate leader who represents you and that you authorized this person to have such powers probably not but imagine if you had a voting system to decide the future of your protocol but only 5% of the people participate that would be a problem so the first step is building the infrastructure for participation these are everything from an improvement proposal process to meetup groups to advocates within the ecosystem such as ambassadors who are good at propagating information rallying people and getting people to care then once you have that infrastructure then you create a democratic mechanism to pull people and you can bet is the voting systems itself and their many different ways you can say you only get to vote for one thing or you can vote for a collection of things in this by proportion so you know you vote for your first choice and then your second choice your third choice or you can just you know do anything you want between zero on one but you can only spend one unit total so you can get point three to this and point to that and so forth so that's the third level and then there's a meta thing that wraps around all of this which is what exactly what I was talking about which is the incentive even if you have those foundations to participate even if you have the voting system even if you have the mechanism to vote you still need to want to participate and if you look at the American election system every year less people throw the presidential activist by percentage population because people are getting more and more concerned about the quality of the candidates they went from candidates that were credible like Bill Clinton and George HW Bush so at least you could argue that these are real people real politicians who have real skills to candidates like Hillary Clinton n Trump which many people would argue were just either well past their prime and so corrupt and jaded shouldn't be there or rigged the system and shouldn't be there or just wildly unqualified for any office much much more the presidency so what do you do when you're only given two choices and neither what you like you don't participate so you shouldn't even be in a situation where you get two extremely bad choices to choose from you should be in a situation where you are able to participate every step of the way in a meaningful way so when you finally get to that terminus choices at least palatable for the majority of the ecosystem you wouldn't feel bad if neither one went through that's the ideal government system now how are we doing that we're writing the improvement proposal process this was something initially supposed to be done by the foundation okay well we got to do it now and we're doing that we then also have to cede out an ambassador program and meetup groups that is being done by the foundation and I'm glad to see growth there that's kind of getting some of the infrastructure primed and the next step is to roll out a voting system and then once the voting system is rolled out then to get participation within the voting system and there's all kinds of incentive schemes you can put on top to get that done and the type of voting is liquid democracy that's the route that we started going down we've written some papers about how to do that that's level three and then we just see where this goes and we see the level of participation and over and over time eventually gets more and more decentralized and I which case less necessary her goes less necessary meaning we wake up one day and we're just small voices in a very very big ocean that's the way it should be yeah well anyway we're right about an hour so thank you all for listening to recap we're gonna launch the network test at ya middle of this month this upcoming month may bleed out a week or two but not by much and we'll make an announcement on the 28th about the incentivized test that as well as kind of how that fits in to the roll out into the Haskell side and also talk about card out on 20/20 in Sofia Bulgaria on September 28th so thank you guys so much for listening this was a lot of fun and better luck next time Cheers
