Library/Surprise AMA with Charles

Surprise AMA with Charles

Jul 8, 2018· 2:08:38· 24K views·indexed 5mo ago

THIS VIDEO

TranscriptAI-cleaned

⌕

[Music] hi everybody okay let&#39;s make sure the stream is working all right can everybody hear me all right just confirm that in the chat please making sure that my audio is working properly okay I had a little extra time today so I figured why not actually do something a bit different so every now and then I do an impromptu video talking about latest events for Cardinal and now I said well wouldn&#39;t it be cool instead of me broadcasting to you you broadcast back to me and ask me some questions about things that have always been on your mind so I don&#39;t know how long I&#39;ll be here or how much time I&#39;ll have but I&#39;ll try to get to as many of your questions as possible so feel free to share the link and send me all your questions so a few things that have already been asked that I think probably would be good to break the ice one is do we have a partnership with Google or what is the story behind Google and you know what did we actually do there and so forth so the story is that I met with Google I think over a month ago I was in London and originally we were gonna meet Ireland but they said hey come to our London office and I said all right so I went there and it was an informal Q&amp;A session so basically they said hey we&#39;d like to ask you lots of questions about the cryptocurrency space about the technology that Cardno has and what ihk does as a company and I said all right well you could ask me whatever you guys want that&#39;s fun and let&#39;s hope that we come to some sort of good conclusion so we were there for about two hours give or take and we produced transcript of the questions that were asked and then there was kind of a nice tour that they gave us of the building and the London Google office was really pretty and we really enjoyed it and we went about our way so we asked Google if they would mind us creating a transcript of the meeting and then posting it they said no because transcripts take time to produce we we spent about a month on it and we released it as soon as we released it we ended up getting in an overwhelmingly large response mostly with people insinuating that there soon some sort of partnership with Google on the way here&#39;s the reality Google is a multinational company it&#39;s one of the largest most powerful engineering companies in the world they have some phenomenal scientists working at Google from world-famous cryptographers InfoSec people if Google is going to do a cryptocurrency Google does not need to partner with me and they don&#39;t need to partner with aetherium or Bitcoin or anything else they&#39;re just gonna go ahead and do their own thing that said Google is a good patron of open-source technology and many of their employees do invest their weekends and at least one day a week on contributing to some open source project and Google does have a very large internal cryptocurrency and blockchain mailing list and a lot of their employees love this space in fact Mike Hearn is one of the most famous Googlers to work he was originally a core developer of Bitcoin so there&#39;s certainly a lot of interest in the company there so we felt it&#39;d be an excellent opportunity to tell them what we&#39;re working on and if any of their employees or affiliates want to make open source contributions we&#39;d always welcome it but I don&#39;t think there&#39;s going to be a partnership anytime soon with Google I think Google like Microsoft and Apple and Facebook is just gonna go its own way and do its own thing at the high level but there always are opportunities for us to collaborate and if Google has some ideas or we have some ideas that we think makes sense then we&#39;ll of course pursue that we are using cool technology in our stack electron is actually a fork of chromium and node and stitched together and that&#39;s the heart of Daedalus and there&#39;s a lot of other little things that Google&#39;s worked on in the past that we&#39;ve pulled into our text deck because they&#39;re just legitimately really good ideas and we hope that Google can see parts of our stack as useful to things that they work on so that&#39;s the Google question okay let&#39;s take a look at these questions we have here oh this one&#39;s interesting what is your relationship with Cardno communications your relationship with Michael Parsons so that looks like a fun question to ask so the Cardinal foundation emerge oh and IOH care through kind of the three core entities at the moment behind Cardinal Cardinal and from the very beginning was federated it wasn&#39;t like in the beginning there was a person than a company that collection of companies in the beginning there was a collection of companies and each and every one of them serves a different role in purpose in the ecosystem so I which Kay builds the protocol it&#39;s our job to figure out at least for the initial impulse what is the core collections of technologies necessary for a really good crypto currency that the community can then take an augment meaning that there are governance tools built in and there&#39;s funding tools built in so the community will have the resources necessary to execute on the next roadmap post our involvement but then there of course needs to be an entity that&#39;s kind of the Evangelist and it goes around and says you should build on card ah no you should use card ah no in your stack corrado is the most amazing thing in the whole world and that entity is a mergo they&#39;re kind of like our version of consensus consensus is tremendously successful for the etherium ecosystem and they&#39;ve done just amazing work for aetherium and our hope was that could there be a consensus for card ah no and that&#39;s what a mergo does amongst other things but then there actually needs to be that objective neutral party that tends to keep everybody honest and make sure that the claims that are being made and things that are being done are we reasonable furthermore if there are obvious attempts to scam people like fake wallets or blatantly dishonest statements which are intended to hurt people or steal their money there needs to be somebody who has the mandate to go out there and fight those people and get things where they need to go so the foundation is both a community management kind of a golden source of information and it also serves as an auditor for example they&#39;ve retained if p-complete to look at our code and verify that we&#39;re actually doing our job properly they also collaborate on things like the enterprise cardinal ideas and what is the enterprise cardinal strategy so what we want to extend Cardinal beyond just a cryptocurrency and a decentralized ledger and going to the permission blockchain space what does that need to look like and how do we need to make that work and they also hold the trademarks for card on so the relationship with Parsons and the relationship with the foundation is exactly what you would expect we are our friends we work hard together and we&#39;re serving a common goal but at the end of the day we are our own people so I have my own work and he has his own work and sometimes they overlap and sometimes they don&#39;t sometimes we agree times we disagree but for the most part we&#39;ve gotten along really well over the years and we have a very productive relationship okay let&#39;s see what we have here let&#39;s here are any easy case darks coming to car Dalida about SPV nodes so stark technology is is really interesting so succinct on air active arguments of knowledge this whole notion of zero knowledge so the point of zero knowledge is to say ok I know something and you want to know that thing that or at the very least you want to know something about that thing like for example I can claim I&#39;m over a certain age over 18 or I can claim that I know the password to get access to a file for example now the problem is that when I share that information with you you gain knowledge in that if I share the password to get access to a file you now how also have access to the file so anything that makes me special is now no longer special so the point of zero knowledge is to verify to a person who&#39;s asking that you indeed do know something like the password to decrypt that file but not actually give them that asset so it&#39;s a very powerful primitive it&#39;s something that was originally discovered in the 1980s by people at MIT Sylvia McCauley and others so where zero knowledge is really interesting is it can be used in the cryptocurrency context to give us either where it&#39;s called verify computation or private transactions so in the case of verified computation what that&#39;s about is that&#39;s about saying hey you have a program and I&#39;m gonna give you an input for that program and I want you to give me an output so let&#39;s say I want you to fold a protein so you&#39;re gonna do all these manipulations and then the output would be the folded protein okay and I told you how to fold it that was the input well here&#39;s the problem how do you know that I&#39;ve actually done that computation correctly this is a broader problem an outsource of computation so the solution for aetherium is by replication so it&#39;s how math used to be done back in the day where before computers you&#39;d have a bunch of people inside of room usually they were women and they would give them math problems to solve and they would solve and you go and say what&#39;s but for example five plus 11 is a simple example and if there is 11 people in the room if you know six of them raise their hand and said 11 you know they they would say okay that&#39;s the answer we&#39;re gonna go with it and that&#39;s basically how a theorem works you have a collection of shared computation these nodes will do it and if you have a majority answer that&#39;s the answer well the problem is that doesn&#39;t scale and because you add more nodes to do the computation you&#39;re getting more assurance that the computation has been done correctly but you&#39;re not actually speeding the computation up you&#39;re as slow as the slowest person so there&#39;s been a lot of talk about could we use snark technology or zero-knowledge technology to say okay I&#39;m gonna give you this basket of computation to do you&#39;re gonna go ahead and run that computation and then give me an output let&#39;s say a smart contract and you&#39;re gonna give me an output like a random number generated from it or something like that but I need to know it&#39;s been done correctly so what if I can give you a proof of correctness alongside that and looking at that you don&#39;t have to rerun the computation you just know the computations actually been done correctly there&#39;s actually some research that&#39;s out of Microsoft for framework called Pinocchio that studies these things and basically the answer is not only can you do this the proofs are constant size they&#39;re about two hundred eighty eight bytes they&#39;re really hard to make but they&#39;re constant in terms of their size and easy to validate so that&#39;s one Avenue where ZK is really interesting another Avenue is for privacy that&#39;s what Z cash is about and that&#39;s what does n cash is about in these types of projects and we think a lot excuse me we think a lot about sore throat we think a lot about how we can use snark technology to allow us to have more anonymous transactions but also things like side chains so the very same primitives that allow you to have private transactions and verified computation could potentially be used to verify properties of a blockchain where you don&#39;t have the underlying blockchain so for example let&#39;s say that you receive a side chain transaction so something from Bitcoin to litecoin so when it goes from Bitcoin to litecoins well if you&#39;re like coin those nodes need to know two things two characteristics about that particular transaction one they need to know that the tokens that you&#39;re sending over exist so there&#39;s an existential question or is this real light coin or Bitcoin that you&#39;re sending over to light coin for example second they need to understand that you haven&#39;t double spent those tokens so how do we know that you&#39;ve taken legitimate Bitcoin and you haven&#39;t also sent it to - or you&#39;ve sent it to a theorem or something like that so there is an existential question and then there is an onyx essential question on existence of a double transaction so turns out that you potentially could build a proof using zero knowledge technology that has a nice constant size and it&#39;s easy to validate that could answer both of those questions and the validators of that proof would not necessarily need to have a copy of the entire other blockchain to validate that so these are kind of a spectrum of things now in terms of I which K what are we doing in with respect to Z K and Cardinal so we have a collection of research streams that we&#39;re working on one is the verified computation side of things we have a million dollar lab that we&#39;ve set up at University of Edinburgh led by Markoff Cole Weiss originally was from Microsoft Research and he left and became a professor up in Edinburgh and basically they&#39;re examining how do we use zero knowledge to get ourselves more private and more verifiable computations we&#39;re looking at pulling this technology into our side chains protocol to make it more efficient and we&#39;re also looking at this technology for private off chain smart contracts so we have a collection of different people from DNS as in droves to mark off to Thomas P Ober and others who are working on that and at some point we&#39;ll publish a paper but this research is pretty complicated these things are pretty difficult to build and there&#39;s not many people who do them well so it takes a bit of time to spool things up but it&#39;s an area of inquiry that we think is quite promising and there&#39;s certainly a lot of work and a lot of different mm-hmm now that a theorem classic has a good foothold will I which K continue to support et Cie development that&#39;s a good question so you know what if et Cie first came out you know I wanted to prove a point that it is immoral when you advertise something for an ICO to then turn tail and completely do the opposite because of legal inconvenience you know if you say hey kotas law we&#39;re gonna invent words and we&#39;re gonna say you can&#39;t change the ledger just because it turns out that maybe you weren&#39;t ready to commit to that you can&#39;t just suddenly pretend like you didn&#39;t make that promise you know if I sell you a product you give me money I can&#39;t retroactively lis come back and say you know I&#39;m gonna change the terms and conditions of that transaction because I just found out it&#39;s inconvenient to me you know as sorry if you sold something you have to deal with the consequences of the thing you sold so when I got involved in a theorem classic if anything it was to prove that a principles matter and that you know it&#39;s not okay to reverse and that people need to have the option if people believe in what victaulic has done they can keep with aetherium if they believe that the original intent should be maintained they can sell their ether and stay within a theorem classic eco system and basically people were given a proper choice not a rushed choice now one of the problems is that the etherium classic community in the beginning had no credibility a because the majority of the infrastructure developers went over to aetherium so the rest guys the death guys these people they lived in the etherium side and there was nothing going on in the theorem classic side that would indicate that aetherium classic actually had a competency that you would expect of someone who could not only maintain the chain but also upgrade the chain and grow the chain so we felt it was very important for us to invest money into building from the ground up a completely new client from nothing so we just took the yellow paper the documentation we borrowed no code we brought together a great team of Scala developers we called them the growth indeed team and we said go have fun and they spent basically a year constructing at the moment the most concise aetherium client ever built it&#39;s only about twelve thousand lines of code it&#39;s got beautiful test coverage it&#39;s been security it&#39;s fast it&#39;s easy to use it has the Daedalus front end and we&#39;re gonna make a lot of improvements to make that even better and bring it native ERC 20 supports you can hold your ears so 20 of tokens in an addition to the ether classic and and we just went and did that so now we&#39;re at a point where mantas is not only out it&#39;s gone through a major update and it&#39;s going to go through an even another major update and we have to kind of make a decision of where will I wage K go with ether classic and there&#39;s a lot of challenges there governance challenges and that it doesn&#39;t have a leader there&#39;s a very decentralized group of people kind of like Bitcoin who are doing different things and each and every one of them kind of has a vision and a different idea also like Bitcoin there&#39;s no centralized source of funding there is no one who has is like ICO pool of money or pre mine who then gets to decide who gets funded even if they&#39;re beneficent and give you grants there&#39;s still no one there so there has been some attempts to create some capital aggregation but we haven&#39;t quite seen that materialize in a way that would be productive for everybody yeah but doesn&#39;t say it&#39;s not gonna happen so we&#39;re gonna have a summit in September and I&#39;ll be attending and presenting and we&#39;re gonna be showing off our latest version of mantas where we have built-in aetherium support so now mantas targets Botha theorem classic aetherium and it&#39;s an IRC 20 wallet so you can basically have a God&#39;s eye view of all those asset types and it&#39;ll have a few other things built under the hood that are very nice and because this is a full node you can actually technically run the entire aetherium network or the entire theory and classic network just off of that code base then we&#39;ll discuss at the summit with the other people what should 2019 look like and does it make sense to scale up effort keep the efforts at the same level or gradually scale down effort you know let the community manage that that node that we&#39;ve written but I think it&#39;s overall mission accomplished most people respect if they&#39;re in classic at this point if anything just for its principles most of the fights of the past have been resolved and even Vitalik himself actually still holds some ether classic and a lot of people leave the RM ecosystem turns out never sold their ether classic they kept it it&#39;s a small coin but it&#39;s probably going to stay on proof-of-work and it is a good opportunity to start having discussions about whether you can still do innovation with proof of work in the smart contract space and if it stays in that direction it doesn&#39;t compete directly with cardinal so I see no issue with having that discussion so so that&#39;s basically where we&#39;re at right now the growth in teak team did a tremendous job the other thing is they did a very transparent job so if you actually go to our YouTube channel and go to the I which K Channel and you look at the growth in deke meetings you can start from March of last year and like clockwork every single week watch if 10 to 20-minute meeting of the developers getting together and talking about what they accomplished that week and that&#39;s been public for almost more than a year now so you can see the development evolution of the client from scratch and how it went from an idea to actual software deployed that&#39;s been audited and very high quality with good test coverage and so I&#39;m really proud of that level of transparency and I&#39;m really proud that we were able to build that and to date I think it&#39;s the only functional version of etherium written a version of a theorem written in a functional language so that&#39;s a story there okay let&#39;s see here but do the original needs how many languages will cardano&#39;s support and smart contracts and gaps be written in and let&#39;s see get some other questions ok so there&#39;s some good questions here all right so card ATO has been misrepresented a lot and it&#39;s it&#39;s amazing you know I guess I&#39;m failing at comps and marketing but I hear things from we&#39;re in DRC 20 token to the only way to write smart contracts is in Haskell at the moment there is no way to write Haskell smart contracts with card ATO so I don&#39;t know where that came from but okay the goal of card I know is to be both principled and pragmatic so there are kind of three collections of problems you have to solve when you think about computation there is computation around well understood domains and the most pertinent domain to the cryptocurrency space is computation around accounting so that&#39;s what bitcoin solves and most cryptocurrencies based in that paradigm where they say I have an asset and I need to figure out who owns it and I need to have a large catalog of bespoke type transactions that allow me to move that ass between people that can be continued settlement style transactions like multi-sig for example and that can be arbitrarily complicated things that are like event based transactions or things like that so there&#39;s a whole basket of that stuff there and Bitcoin only covers a small sliver event and that&#39;s one of the original biggest frustrations that I had and other people had with Bitcoin was that it only covered a sliver of this beautiful rich financial ecosystem so what we decided to do is say all right well why don&#39;t we build an accounting ledger that allows you to represent the types of assets and those types of transactions and the most efficient way in pair Aliza balay possible so you can get Visa scale long term performance but then you can also do everything that Wall Street is used to doing so we created a domain-specific language called Marlow we created a general-purpose programming language that was functional that Marlowe and beds in called Plutus and we really rigorously thought about the UT Excel accounting model and we also came up with a way to issue assets within that model that&#39;s interoperable with the etherium style account model okay so that&#39;s one basket and we&#39;re gonna put a huge amount and we&#39;re actually already putting a huge amount of money and effort resources into getting that where it needs to go that team has grown from two people to six people and it&#39;ll soon grow to eight I and we&#39;re getting to the point we&#39;re starting to run thought experiments about different types of exotic transactions and other things and making sure that all our security assumptions are great so that&#39;s awesome and that&#39;s going to kind of finish what bitcoin started then you have the etherium style computational model which is replicated or some notion of distributed computation but what do these are are stateful programs you send messages to them they wake up they do something the outputs something and you can chain them together and there&#39;s all kinds of crazy things you can do so if you want to build a dhow or you want to build a ride-sharing application of these types of things you can have these types of programs now aetherium kind of brought this model to the forefront cool model interesting model the problem is that model at the moment does not scale and anybody is actually using that model for anything that&#39;s more than a toy has had to interface that with off chain activity you know so basically they&#39;ve either had to leave aetherium they&#39;ve had to kind of build a two-layer Network for the blockchain does a little something and then there&#39;s some server off in the distance that does something else that&#39;s okay that because it&#39;s prototype technology it&#39;s no no not not so capable in the beginning so we have a bunch of threads of research that we&#39;re doing about how do we make that model better so first how do we pull some of that computation off the chain and allow you still to do it in the same type of trust model or similar trust guarantees then you have as if it was replicated so that&#39;s things like what Markoff is doing with snark technology and we&#39;re also looking to things like state channels and so forth and there&#39;s a lot of different pathways you can go second you have to make sure that when you do do things on this slow engine that they&#39;re done as securely as possible and most reliably as possible with the most interoperability as possible so that&#39;s why we engage run time verification and we said first it&#39;s been a lot of time and effort understanding aetherium so they wrote the K EVM paper and wrote formal semantics for that but then also built something completely new that is built from the ground up to be really the best foundation for virtual machine for smart contracts in this model so they created yellow and yellow was based on LOV M which is a very successful framework Apple funded it Steve Jobs himself really liked it the department chair of University of Illinois urbana-champaign is the one who built it with a few others so we think that that&#39;s something very awesome and it really can provide a lot of power now if yellow alone would be cool and it&#39;s pretty easy to write compilers for yellow because it&#39;s like targeting LLVM and that&#39;s very well understood at the moment by language designers that said we need a near operability as well and so we&#39;ve invested a lot of money through runtime verification and this concept called semantic space compilation it&#39;s complicated but basically the concept is if you take a language and you write that language in a very special way you pay that cost one time then what happens is you can then take a program written in that language and translate it into another program written in another language that&#39;s also been written in that very careful way so if you have K semantics for one language in case&#39; message for another you can do some notion of a translation between the two right now running experiments our RV is running experiments with semantic space compilation and throughout the summer we&#39;re going to see if that high-risk high-return effort is successful if it is then what we&#39;ve done is basically built a universal compilation target and all we have to do to support a new language is just write the semantics of that language down and we could even make this a community driven effort where you can create a special transaction where you can write the semantics for your programming language whether it be a real complicated language like C++ or a toy language you&#39;ve created for a domain-specific application you write those you register those and then if they&#39;re on the blockchain a compiler a special type of compiler can see them there and then we&#39;ll understand how to interpret that program and translate it to run as a smart contract in our system so it&#39;s a pretty funky crazy idea there are other concepts that people have been pursuing with this notion of universal foundation like we&#39;re all from Oracle and so forth but we think semantics based compilation could be a long art project that eventually gives us damn near universal interoperability meaning that we can eventually support hundreds if not thousands of programming languages to target our system now the really cool thing about this is if you upgrade your base layers let&#39;s say we come up with yellow 2.0 based upon all the lessons and experiences and magic we&#39;ve learned from yellow you only update the semantics of yellow and you changed nothing else in the system and you don&#39;t have to update any compiler or anything like that that&#39;s the problem with upgrading your face lever here let&#39;s say you come up with the new version of Java Java 9 well then you have to upgrade all the compilers that target that or else are stuck on the legacy version whereas in this system it just auto updates everything else so that&#39;s really cool and I think there&#39;s some magic there so that&#39;s kind of the second bucket there&#39;s 19 people that are working on that some are rebuilding the K framework to make it better based on the 15 years of lessons that RV has learned from it some are working on semantics based compilations some people are working on yellow the yellow test that&#39;s actually gonna be launching at the end of the month is the first example of it and some people are working and making K faster building a kata alluvium backend so that it&#39;ll the machine generated stuff will run basically as fast as handwritten out the third option is to look at alternative models of computation so these are things like what enigma is doing with Intel or what we&#39;re doing in our Tokyo tech laboratory with multi-party computation so if you really think about it a lot of the times you don&#39;t particularly care about the blockchain side of the transaction so for example you say well if I&#39;m playing a poker game I like the blockchain as a payment system I like the fact that it can connect me to people but at the end of the day I don&#39;t really care if my poker game is preserved or not all I care about is that it&#39;s a fair game area people can&#39;t cheat I&#39;m playing against reasonable people and at the end of the day I get paid where my winnings and losses are all balanced money going in matches money going out and it&#39;s fair so why then would you want to do that on a system that gives you all that additional stuff it says this has to be a game the whole network cares about it&#39;s deeply public and your computation is competing for everybody else&#39;s computation furthermore your settlement time is constrained to the settlement time of the entire network so if you have 10-minute block times for example if Bitcoin you have to wait 10 minutes for the state of the game to update so you have to wait 10 minutes for you to see the next round in the game or something like that so it&#39;s not the blockchain model is really bad for those types of applications and those types of applications turn out to be a large chunk of the applications we tend to care about not just gambling but also things like exchange and so forth like if you think about a decentralized exchange do you particularly care that the order book and all of these things are preserved forever and the blockchain and you live within those constraints no most people don&#39;t they just say I want to go from like coin to Bitcoin and I want to know I can&#39;t be front-running it&#39;s a fair market place and so forth so if you use multi-party computation you kind of get the best of both worlds you use a blockchain for people to find each other use a blockchain for the exit and entry points of the transaction to be recorded and then the rest of this stuff happens off chain and its own little protocol and it just runs until it&#39;s terminated and when it&#39;s terminated people collect their winnings and losses or in case it&#39;s a centralized exchange you&#39;ve done a swap the other advantages you run at the speed of participants and so if you&#39;re connecting to high-performance nodes you you you could potentially have millisecond latency &#39;z as opposed to 10-minute latencies and so forth and all that computation and all those resources are off chain but you can still have tunable privacy you can still do a whole bunch of things like for example kaleidoscope and royale two protocols that we&#39;ve written those protocols in no way reveal card information to the other players until you want and you want to do that so you know poker is kind of pointless if people can see your cards unless you show them simply decentralize exchange you there&#39;s some you know timing behind one you actually interestings into the order book so we&#39;re investigating those options and we&#39;re seeing how we can bring those into card on oh and there&#39;s hundreds of types of NPC protocols we could develop and the good news is that they actually all share common primitives and since once we figure out the network side of it and a lot of the cryptographic primitives these things are composable and eventually we can actually construct kind of a toolkit for people to build their own NPC type protocols and put them into their DAPs so we&#39;ve been calling that lebowski for the moment and Lebowski&#39;s kind of a joke about the big lebowski you know where they have the rug that ties the whole room together because this type of layer will kind of tie the blockchain together and give you new capabilities so anyway that&#39;s a big effort in 2019 and we think that&#39;s something that&#39;s very unique to Cardno not many people look into that or have those capabilities not only do we have the capabilities we&#39;ve already published to peer review papers on those capabilities and we continue to publish them and at some point we&#39;re going to start dragging those capabilities into Cardno itself so those are the kind of the three models let&#39;s be the best accounting model and replicate everything that Wall Street needs let&#39;s be the best a theorem model so we can be both interoperable with what aetherium is done and future proof for everything that people are gonna want to do and allow them to write some art contracts the languages that they care to and then let&#39;s give people new capabilities whether those be off chain capabilities like payment channels or those be things new capabilities like multi-party computation and so forth which kind of fundamentally change the way that these things work so that&#39;s kind of the computational model of Cardinal so then the next question that we usually get is well when is all this going to ship now it is easy to ship an incomplete product and it is easy to ship something that people can do something with but not in a very satisfactory way so if we wanted to after the yellow test net is complete which would only take a few months we certainly could have a smart contract layer for Cardinal okay that layer would be faster and have more capabilities than aetherium and would certainly have a kind of a better development experience because we probably could be more clever about the surface languages that target yellow but at the end of day wouldn&#39;t be revolutionary in that it wouldn&#39;t actually give you completely new capabilities like the npc stuff so there&#39;s always a war as a CEO in as a product manager to decide the balance between revolutionary new things and being able to be pragmatic and give people capabilities that they care about so we&#39;re exploring options about getting smart contracts into Cardno even if they&#39;re not super revolutionary and completely change the world but we have to also make sure that we do that in a very safe way so after the yellow test that&#39;s had some time to run we&#39;ll take a look at where we&#39;re at take a look at where our sidechains protocols are at and then we&#39;ll make some form of announcement of when we think we can start linking CL and SL together we already have an aetherium version of CL running it&#39;s been running for over a month and the yellow version will be running at the end of this month so you know you all the things you&#39;ve come to know and love with the theory and you&#39;ll be able to do and then we&#39;ll have some new capabilities that we roll out as well what&#39;s really exciting is Plutus and Marlowe because that&#39;s a totally new thing and we think people are gonna really love that and our hope is to pull that into SL itself if possible so that you have the absolute best ledger two-issue assets on if that&#39;s your desire in terms of new capabilities the way we&#39;ve built our development model as they&#39;re available we should be able to roll them into our system in a very organic and natural way so they don&#39;t require massive disruptions or huge hard Forks or like huge amounts of planning and so forth and the system is kind of layered and encapsulated so even if one of these components was to fail it wouldn&#39;t cascade through the system and cause the system to completely shut down that&#39;s one of the advantages of layering it&#39;s a little bit more expensive in terms of time and architecture but it certainly does give you a lot more protection than you would otherwise if you had a big monolithic system so that&#39;s the smart contract story in short yes you&#39;ll be able to write smart contracts and more than just Haskell I would really love to be able to write a JavaScript smart contract at some point I really would love to be able to write a Java smart contract in a C++ smart contract and I think that we have a good strategy for bringing these things into our system within a reasonable period of time okay another one is what do you think it will for our coin are to decouple Bitcoin you know so basically what crypto Kylie is asking is will we forever be in a paradigm where Bitcoin and alt colleen&#39;s are linked together and when Bitcoin goes up all coins go up when Bitcoin goes down all coins go down and basically bitcoin is leading the pack and it&#39;s completely in charge of of this stuff and the reality is that it&#39;s like any marketplace when you first start there&#39;s a leader in that marketplace who sets all those standards in that marketplace and everybody is just a mirror of that in that they do something more or they do something differently but you&#39;re basically focused on that then what ends up happening is that the marketplace grows and then you end up getting diversity within that marketplace and what happens is that people start caring less and less and less about the leader if it&#39;s IBM with computing hardware that used to own the entire industry now no one really cares they&#39;ve left the market Microsoft with Windows which used to be a complete monopoly and everybody had to build their applications a certain way to correspond to their vision and now more people target Android and iOS and they do Windows and they don&#39;t really care about Windows anymore we&#39;re Internet Explorer now we have a diverse browser ecosystem with Chrome and Mozilla and Safari and so forth and I imagine that the exact same thing is going to happen what&#39;s going to end up likely occurring is Bitcoin is going to pull back in because of its rate of evolution and become a digital commodity it&#39;s going to become digital gold and it&#39;s going to be an anchor in the system a gateway drug into the system with a high degree of liquidity lots of fiat power good exchange access and then once you&#39;re in Bitcoin eventually Bitcoin will be capable enough to reasonably communicate with other cryptocurrencies maybe this will take three years maybe it&#39;ll take five years but those bridges will be constructed and once constructed we have kind of a web of different cryptocurrencies and there&#39;s infrastructural plays like people who are trying to kill Facebook and replace it with a decentralized version people are trying to kill Ober and replace it with a decentralized version and so forth so there&#39;s kind of like services there&#39;ll be other digital commodities that have different characteristics about them to compete with Bitcoin and then you&#39;ll have DAP tokens and these things so there&#39;ll be this web of value that happens a web of blockchains and these things will look more like the stock market so they&#39;ll all respond to macroeconomic trends so they&#39;ll all go down and up based upon big events that affect the entire industry like if there was a huge regulatory change for example but other than that when Microsoft goes up it doesn&#39;t necessarily mean exxon mobil is going to go up exxon mobil can go down microsoft goes up there&#39;s loosely correlate they don&#39;t have much connection to each other that said there are things that are desert connected like Microsoft Facebook Google Apple these companies tend to be in the same sectors and compete with each other so when one goes up the other ones tend to go up or down but there&#39;s some stronger tighter correlations between those pairings and it&#39;ll be the exact same thing for cryptocurrencies you&#39;ll have the digital commodity class of cryptocurrencies they&#39;ll probably be clustered with each other and when Bitcoin goes up they&#39;ll try you know rising tides they&#39;ll go up but it will not have as dramatic of effect on infrastructure tokens for example if you look at a theorem in Bitcoin the copling over time has already started to naturally decrease and when the theorem goes up or down or Bitcoin goes up or down they don&#39;t impact each other as much as you&#39;d think they still do Bitcoin still a Goliath and Bitcoin usually is the with the kind of the canary in the coal mine if it rapidly goes down it rapidly goes up everything tends to follow it and that&#39;ll probably be the case for some time because these markets become richer or advanced financial products are created I do think we&#39;ll see some separation okay let&#39;s hear but if ha what do you think of liske since you left your adviser role do you think that they saw problems but you thought they were not focusing on so you know I&#39;ll probably talk about Liske a little bit so what happened with Liske is a good friend of mine bought a lot of Liske and he said hey I&#39;d love for you to be an adviser of Liske and I said well I don&#39;t know too much about the project and he said well let me introduce you to the founders and you know let&#39;s see if you guys hit it off so I met max and Oliver and they&#39;re very nice guys and they&#39;re very passionate about their product they didn&#39;t quite have in my view all the experience or talent necessary to run a cryptocurrency if you actually look at a cryptocurrency it&#39;s a very involved affair I which K now is enough capabilities to develop a cryptocurrency but we now have a hundred and sixty people with a research division the full engineering division there&#39;s eight companies working on it you know we&#39;re in 16 countries it&#39;s it&#39;s a lot so you know it&#39;s just max and Oliver and it&#39;s like okay you have some money and you have some passion but you really do need to build a team so we talked for a while and my advice was well I could be come on as an advisor and help you guys since you now have capital to basically make some obviously good decisions for example you couldn&#39;t just have money sitting in a trust or personal account you needed to put that money in some sort of legal structure that was built in a way to achieve the mission of the people who gave you the money like with the theorem of italic and the rest put the money in the etherium foundation so similarly I recommended creating a Swiss foundation and there&#39;s a lot of little advice that I gave like that but at the end of the day what ended up happening is about six months into the year that I agreed to help them come on board I gave became increasingly frustrated because I felt like things were moving a bit too slowly and that my advice really wasn&#39;t being listened to or I should say even if it was being listened to wasn&#39;t being executed on in a way that made sense so that&#39;s okay you know people have diverging visions but the thing was that I was consuming money from the list project by being there and I felt it was morally irresponsible to be an advisor to a project where I was being paid but now really doing much so I said well I keep what you&#39;ve paid me and then for the other six months you go ahead and keep that and I&#39;ll bow out now since I&#39;ve left what&#39;s happened is the list has grown a lot they&#39;ve gotten some great key people and they&#39;ve managed to actually do a lot of work and it&#39;s one of the most active blockchain projects now and I&#39;m very proud that max has been able to to get himself it seems where he needs to be and I hope that Liz can find its own way and really become a great platform for people to use you know there was a project that Microsoft released called Project Bletchley which was kind of like a blockchain as a service project and there&#39;s a litany of things you could imagine like consensus as a service or storage as a service and I always felt that that was a good direction for list to go into as kind of a direction that yose has been pursuing so if they go down that road I think Liz will have a lot of utility and value and because they&#39;ve chosen a language that is easy to develop in and easy to find developers for and they got a pretty good foundation to build on I think they can execute very quickly and Liz can still be quite a valuable project but ultimately that&#39;s up to max and Oliver and they have their vision and may have their work their doing and we wish them well you know we think that their best days could be ahead of them and they certainly have the resources to get themselves where they need to go and that&#39;s really the nature of the space if you look at it at the end of the day there&#39;s more in common between projects and there is in opposition between projects there are some projects that are very difficult for a variety of reasons for me to understand or relate to or interact with and in some of the communities of these projects are extremely negative and toxic and say incredibly hurtful things for sometimes no reason whatsoever but for the most part once you separate that drama and the small minority of people that actively seek to be bad actors for the most part people like working together are talking together we talk to the - people Charley Lee and I are always having fun on Twitter and there&#39;s a dozen or so projects that I interact with on pretty much a weekly basis if anything just asks them where the road map is at what&#39;s going on and you know I witch Kay is not just the Cardinal company we&#39;re a blockchain company and we build blockchain technology we develop protocols and as a consequence of developing those protocols we&#39;re always thinking carefully about well who could benefit the most as another example of this recently I I treated the Justin son a recommendation that he used mantis for Tron why because I noticed that Justin seems to be using aetherium Java and he&#39;s made some modifications to it but it&#39;s still basically a theory Amjad and that code base is not optimal and if you want us beyond the Java Virtual Machine and use the theorem I feel that mantis would be a much much much better foundation to build on and there&#39;s a lot more innovation that you could do then you could potentially do with the theory of Java and there&#39;s a lot less risk and danger given that our code is security audited then the etherium Java code base that they&#39;re using so I made that recommendation it&#39;s open source technology there&#39;s no partnership I don&#39;t make any money from it it&#39;s just me saying well they have a community if they fail it&#39;s gonna hurt a lot of people you know people are gonna lose money so I&#39;d rather see them succeed and I&#39;d rather see them deliver a great product market because it ultimately means that the ecosystem as a whole is stronger and I have a lot of faith in the products that my company builds so of course I&#39;m gonna recommend those and sup to them to decide whether that makes sense or not if they don&#39;t who cares it&#39;s no skin off my back we have other uses for mantis but if they do well then actually it means that it&#39;s become a truly open source product that&#39;s being used by more than just AI ohk and I which kaise affiliates it&#39;s now being used by independent people we&#39;ve already seen this happen once before I which K invested a lot of time and effort into building up score X and Sasha Ivanov took score X and built waves from it and waves has been a very successful product for the position it&#39;s in we didn&#39;t tell him to do that he just forked the code and did it and he&#39;s actually made some contributions back into the score X framework and we wish them well so that&#39;s how this space works and I hope that people have a bit more common sense and civility and they also realized that this is not a sum 0 space the reality is the space is is much more nuanced and we should focus on the things that hold us together rather than the things that tear us apart okay let&#39;s see here and I&#39;ll go back to some of the older questions because I&#39;ve been talking for a long time ah the Bitcoin maximalist a question that&#39;s an interesting one yeah so I&#39;ve been in the Bitcoin space as an investor and as a miner and as probably person&#39;s been aware of it since 2011 so those were very very taste it was like dollar to $4 Bitcoin or something like that and it had already had gone through collapse I think it actually had an all-time high like 30 or something and then I fell apart and people said oh I guess bitcoins dead and the community was incredibly small in fact I live in Colorado and I signed up for a meetup group for Bitcoin and I went there was only two people who registered myself and someone else it was at the Gypsy House Cafe and Denver I went there and I was the only person who showed up so that&#39;s how small Bitcoin was when I entered and it was just unimaginable for the cryptocurrency space to be where it is it today and have the global scale that it had today the reality is that there were kind of two groups of people that were in the cryptocurrency space there were these computer science the open source ecipher punky crypto nomicon guys who they knew about digital money and they liked this idea of open source projects and peer-to-peer protocols and this was just cool thing to play around with and then there was this libertarian gold community and they were you know quite complimentary in a certain respect you know a lot of them on the libertarian side actually came out of the Ron Paul movement where we had kind of lost in 2008 and we were frustrated so we needed someplace to vent and you know this idea of creating our own money and screw the Federal Reserve that was kind of fun and if anything it was a protest but no one in either camp had this vision that we wake up and this thing would be gargantuan you know people like to revise history and you know reinvent themselves so there&#39;s always you know the leaders today&#39;s all well I heard about Bitcoin I knew it was going to be a trillion dollars and it&#39;s gonna be a great ecosystem but that in my experience in the interactions I had with the big guys then who are still the big guys now that was not the case it was it was a fun thing to do and it was an interesting thing to do and we achieved a lot I professionally entered the space in 2013 it was a very different space from 2011 2013 we started seeing Bitcoin actually being worth something was the ecosystem was worth about a billion dollars the market cap had really accelerated a lot there was ton of interest in it and people started legitimately talking about Bitcoin businesses I mean bitpay was originally set up because the guys who ran it were traders and they wanted to come up with a scheme to get themselves more Bitcoin because they were long on it you know they didn&#39;t think too much about how do we build something to kill PayPal or Visa they can tell you that but that&#39;s what they started it as whereas in 2013 there were really people serious about saying well no we actually think this cryptocurrency thing could change the world and there were actually billions of dollars of easy capital and private money that entered the space to get it there right around that time I realized that if this was to be a useful ecosystem we needed to have the ability to represent complex transactions and we needed to have the ability to represent complex programs and it&#39;s not a new idea Nick Szabo had it the 90s and guys like Sergio Lerner had been working on it in the early 2012-2013 of italic was working on it so we Posse DUP together and created a theorem and you know obviously aetherium kind of led the second major wave and also brought the ICL revolution and so forth well here&#39;s what happened as a theorem in the ICL revolution changed the narrative and stoled the entire spotlight that bitcoin had and it was equally likely when you ran into a taxi driver and you were talking about crypto currencies that they held ether then they held Bitcoin and a lot of people actually believed that ether could actually supplant Bitcoin one day so there was a reaction that said hey known bitcoin is the only thing everything else is useless it&#39;s all a scam because of a pre miner because of this and logic just went completely out the door and it almost became like a cult and unfortunately because of that we&#39;ve seen a lot of the best people leave Bitcoin and go elsewhere either left to space entirely or they&#39;ve created all coins and they&#39;ve done their own thing and working on their own project also we really just don&#39;t see a lot of innovation coming out of Bitcoin these days which is tragic because there&#39;s a lot of great ideas simplicity is a great idea mast is a great idea lightning is a great idea sidechains they&#39;re a great idea we&#39;ve we have our own protocols for that which you&#39;re awesome so these are great ideas and these ideas really should be adopted but for whatever reason they&#39;re not adopted and it&#39;s extremely painful to watch something that is so beloved and has so much promise in potential and ought to be Darwinian competitive hobbled by its inability to make decisions even small changes like increasing the block size seem to be just beyond the capabilities of that ecosystem at the moment they&#39;re having a party about the notion of adding snore signatures into Bitcoin this is a 20 year old piece of cryptography I don&#39;t have parties about putting 20 year old technology into my system I don&#39;t wake up and say boy I put PGP into my wallet huzzah look how innovative I am you know it&#39;s it&#39;s it&#39;s absurd so I think Bitcoin maximalism is a difficult tribal response to either jealousy of the innovation and the narrative that the altcoin space is stolen and it&#39;s also a lot of people being very unreasonable about what it takes to innovate no matter how brilliant a person is no matter how incredibly well thought-out an idea is it&#39;s subject to modification due to the nature of new ideas new realities technological improvements the Wright brothers can be the greatest geniuses in the world but nobody in the right mind would build a commercial airline off of the Wright brothers plane and to say that somehow bitcoin was so mad that it in its original design is going to somehow serve as a global payment system a global commodity a global smart contract system is absurd it&#39;s absolutely absurd it&#39;s provably wrong furthermore it is really starting to show its vulnerability x&#39; recent paper that came out March of 2018 written at Cornell University measured the level of decentralisation and the Bitcoin network and an indicated that there are less than 20 major nodes in the system that control eighty to ninety percent of the total hash power depending upon the range that you look at that&#39;s not a decentralized system and also the supply chain of these devices necessary to control the system are patented controlled even if you could buy them you&#39;re going to get them much later than the people who make them and you&#39;re going to be competing with people with subsidized power so you can claim that proof of work is somehow permissionless to centralized network but if only a small group of people ever get to play that game and control that game and they can hold back innovation for profit you&#39;re really not thinking it through and it&#39;s really unfortunate so unfortunately I think Bitcoin maximalism is going to continue but I think it&#39;s consequences it&#39;s going to make Bitcoin less and less relevant the market capitalization of Bitcoin will continue to erode or stay stagnant relative to the old coins and Bitcoin may even lose the top one slot and maybe that&#39;s going to be psychologically a wake-up call for people to become a bit more aggressive with innovation the other thing is that you can&#39;t have a Bitcoin cache every time you have a disagreement it was very painful for the space and it&#39;s caused a lot of emotional harm and it&#39;s been very disenfranchising for a lot of people so I would hope that moving forward they find a way to innovate more for me I we find our ways to make contributions to Bitcoin where we can because I still love that coin I still hold Bitcoin we put some money into a paper called dandy-lion that was written by a professor named promote amongst others at university of illinois and it looks like dandy-lion will be adopted by bitcoin as a bit so indirectly i which k has some contribution to bitcoin core and we&#39;re glad that to see that there is still some innovation there we still do learn from ideas that block stream is presented Russel O&#39;Connor&#39;s work on simplicity for example was very elegant and really helped us think through some ideas about Plutus we would hope that the Bitcoin core developers take some of our work more seriously in particular work on side-chains and in particular our work on UT EXO wallet design unfortunately that just doesn&#39;t seem to be the case but that is what it is so maximalism in my view is bad maximalism and my v will slow down the ecosystem and in my view will make Bitcoin much less competitive in we live in a Darwinian environment so it doesn&#39;t really matter because that will not slow down the cryptocurrencies space that will not slow down my innovation or aetherium zenovation or other actors innovation and we&#39;re just going to keep going til someone gets it done and if Bitcoin wants to be mosaic it can be and it&#39;ll certainly be a great historical footnote if it wants to be chrome it can be as well that&#39;s up for the people who guide that ecosystem and for them to make those choices but I will remind them that we really can&#39;t move is so slow that you&#39;re looking like a monopoly and then unfortunately that seems to be the pace that they&#39;re moving yet okay let&#39;s see here will there be a minimum stick required to register a stake pull in production yeah I&#39;ve seen this a lot where they say oh well only 100 stake pools can exist or only a hundred people can control the network or something it&#39;s it&#39;s crazy okay so first DPOs andorra forest does not stand for delegated proof of stake some people can&#39;t read I&#39;m not going to mention their names but they can&#39;t read it stands for dynamic proof of stake okay so what do we mean by this we mean that in the beginning you have a distribution that&#39;s the genesis block so there&#39;s a collection of people who own a DES or token and their percentages okay so if you have 10,000 tokens and bob has a thousand Bob owns 10% that&#39;s simple so when you have a distribution then you can use that distribution as the input into a lottery and then you can run it and your chance of winning is proportional to the amount that you have and then you can populate a collection of people whose responsibility is to run the network that&#39;s step one then you have to make a decision of are you gonna actually show up and run the network for your turn or are you not going to do that or are you gonna give that right to someone else just that simple and that&#39;s where you need a delegation mechanic because the reality is that the people who hold the coca not necessarily be the people who want to maintain the network and I&#39;ll give you a great succinct example of that what if you have cold storage what if you&#39;ve decided that you want to take your tokens and put them away for 10 years into a mountain in Switzerland well if every time because you have a large percentage of the togas list 5% of the network you know your turn comes up you&#39;d have to go into the mountain and take it out make the keys go live and run your blocks that&#39;s a very unrealistic model so it&#39;d be nice to be able to say that you have your cake and eat it too that you can go ahead and put it in the mountain delegate it to another address and then they have that address whether you own it and control it or somebody else owns it can control it run that collection of block creation and validation for you I think that&#39;s a fair trade-off profile so that&#39;s level two is you need a delegation system then level three is okay well once you&#39;ve constructed that how do you build a system that&#39;s tenable so you do not want a situation where you have tens of thousands of steak poles why because you want these steak poles to be 24/7 uptime super reliable running rellenos providing lots of value to the system if Dan Larimer is taught to space anything it&#39;s that having a smaller quorum of dedicated nodes is actually pretty good it gives you much better performance gives you a much more reliable network topology and it allows you to start building some meta infrastructure like payment channels and these things given that these actors exist but you don&#39;t want them to be too few like Bitcoin or there&#39;s only a small collection of mining pools that exist so what you can do is you can build a model and that model can be parameterized in a game theoretic way to kind of converge to what you think is a reasonable set of delegates that if people are going to delegate then the most profitable thing to do is to delegate only to a subset that exists there now they&#39;re not pre-selected they&#39;re selected by the community and anybody in the community can set up their own pools if they want to and market the hell out of them and convince people to join them but at the end of the day you need to have that balance between too few and too many too many creates performance issues too few creates resiliency issues and centralization issues so you want to have a reasonable set and then you want to have controls where if they don&#39;t do their job there are economic recourses for them to not get paid and thus lose all the stake that&#39;s been delegated and lose the brand of reputation that they&#39;ve constructed so that&#39;s the third layer and that&#39;s what we&#39;ve written in a paper that&#39;s soon-to-be-released about how that model works and how to set those parameters now what&#39;s going to happen is that we&#39;re gonna allow people to register stake pools on blockchain it&#39;s gonna be a real easy process to do anyone can do it they pay a transaction fee to register it but there is no minimum stake required to do it and then it&#39;s just how good of a marketer you are to get people to come on board and run with your pool second we&#39;re going to create some form of an image like a docker image that has a basically a default stake pool and you can just take that and deploy it to Amazon or take that and deploy at the Rackspace and so forth and try to run that as a business and what fees you charge for that pool so how much the pool gets versus how much do the people who have delegated to again is set by you during the registration time so I think that&#39;s a good starting model now course can have some issues and we&#39;re gonna try to work our way through those but I think that&#39;s the way to get started to bootstrap the system and you don&#39;t go from nothing to something what you do is you have a series of iterations that allow you to get there successfully so what we started we start a stateful registration through a form and anybody was interested we got collected thousands and thousands of people who were we&#39;re gonna launch a test net at some point soon and once we launched that test then it&#39;ll have everything set up for state pools and then we&#39;ll run a subset of them maybe a hundred or two hundred and we&#39;ll take a look at performance we&#39;ll take a look at reliability and take a look at operational costing and so forth and then we&#39;ll Telegraph when the network is going to upgrade to Shelley and have those capabilities and because some subset of people have already developed experience and skills we will have a reasonable expectation that when the levers pulled and the system decentralizes that there is a reasonable set of people to be there to take it over now when you have let&#39;s say 1% of the system and you want to just do it all yourself you don&#39;t give a about anybody else you want to delegate you can still stake you have a point one percent if you want a slot you can still stake those capabilities are built in it&#39;s dynamic in that respect ultimately it&#39;s the users decision whether they want to show up to make the blocks they&#39;ve been elected to or they want to delegate that to somebody else that&#39;s your decision as the user if elected and I think that&#39;s the fairest way of running the system because what&#39;s going to end up happening is you&#39;re going to have consensus as a service and you look at stake pools as providing value to the system and then it&#39;s a game of who can provide the most value which means these pools are competing with each other because it&#39;s a race to the bottom just to compete on fees yes so you know people are always going to be charging less and less so other people are gonna say hey I&#39;m gonna offer Oracle services and I&#39;m gonna offer payment channels and I&#39;m gonna offer off chain computation like enabling NPC circuits and these types of things and so tougher and tougher competition will be more and more services are provided to the ecosystem which means overtime Cardinal gets faster and gets more capable at a lower cost to everybody in the system that makes common sense to me if we get it wrong because we build models first we can retune the models and will it&#39;ll be blatantly obvious that we&#39;ve gone it wrong because we can look at things like for example chain quality we can say okay there&#39;s twenty thousand six hundred slots in an epoch how many blocks were actually produced where the blocks produced in a reasonable synchronized order or were they coming in asynchronously were blocks being properly propagated and transmitted through the system you know how long did it take for them to traverse the network diameter there&#39;s hundreds of metrics we can follow and each of those would give us a strong indication of whether the network is healthy or unhealthy if the parameters ation is wrong then the network will tend towards an unhealthy configuration and state if the Pro ization is right then the network will be healthy and resilient and you can perturb it and it would still be able to run effectively that&#39;s how you release a consensus protocol as you do it in layers you do it in a systematic way you do it with a lot of telegraphing and a lot of community involvement and then you get the system out there now over time the system will scale into other configurations when we&#39;re no longer in a replicated mode and you are having lots of nodes doing different computations then it&#39;s actually advantageous to have a lot of stake pools because instead of having a hundred people do the same thing you&#39;re having a hundred people do different things so it&#39;s probably good idea to have tens of thousands hundreds of thousands millions of people involved in the validation and consensus process because then means you&#39;re getting amplification as you add new nodes not replication that&#39;s called orb or Hydra and it&#39;s a research effort that we&#39;re right now looking aggressively into from first principles and as we enter 2019 and 2020 that&#39;s going to be the next major configuration of the system so the goal with Shelli is get stake pools out get delegation out get all these rewards out and these types of things and just get the system to centralize them working and hand it to the community then the next generation is now how can we leverage the fact that the network has hundreds of thousands to millions of people so that we can have incredible performance like tens the hundreds of thousands of net transactions per second over an arc of time so that&#39;s the next big move it means you have to change your incentive models but you have to develop more sophisticated security models it means that you have to give up the idea that everybody is going to be synchronized with the network and and have the same view of the state of the network that they&#39;ll eventually settle but some people will see things before other people and so you have to think very carefully about the security consequences of that but we we understand this problem we understand the trade-off profile of that and we have actually one of the best Byzantine researchers around his name is Mattias frites who&#39;s from Switzerland and he worked at ETH Zurich and we brought him on board specifically to work on this type of project and over time you&#39;ll see some papers being published if you&#39;re more curious about trade-off profiles there&#39;s a great paper called Omni Ledger om and I led ger which is written out of Trinity College and Aquileia Polytechnic the discern and this is a paper that starting point and we&#39;ll do the exact same thing with Ouroboros Hydra let&#39;s see here Charles have you complained to Twitter about the impersonators I have complained to Jack himself an email format text message on Twitter I complain to that complain and I complain and I say Jack I have nearly a hundred thousand followers why the hell don&#39;t I have a verified status I will give you a copy of my passport I will fly to California and go to your house and hand you my passport for you too physically if you know si just give me a damn blue badge ma&#39;am you gave Justin son a badge from Tron for God&#39;s sakes unfortunately I keep hearing the same answer which is verification was shut down last year and as a consequence you&#39;re just gonna have to wait for us to turn that back on and then we&#39;ll have a process for it there are some politics behind verification not related to our space more related to left versus right we&#39;re a certain right-wing people we&#39;re getting verified and I guess Twitter was concerned that that looked like an endorsement of all right people or something like that and they got heavy criticism from people on the left so they decided to do what all companies do when they get heavily criticized for something that doesn&#39;t produce value to hide in their shell so they just shut off verification so we&#39;ll get around to it again so anyway the net result of that is that every single time I post a tweet there are about 10 or 15 bots that post basically tweets on my tweet saying that I&#39;m giving away ether I do not own any ether I have 0 ether historical fact I&#39;ve never actually owned ether my entire life I was entitled 293,000 ether I didn&#39;t take it I told him give it to someone else so I&#39;ve never owned either I have no ether to give away I mean if you&#39;re smart with a buck maybe you&#39;d say I give away ADA or something ok cuz the company has some or uther classic but I&#39;ve never owned ether in my entire life I have no ether to give away for the love of God you people but every time I post something there&#39;s 10 to 15 tweets with spots saying hey let&#39;s go ahead and give you some ether so ignore them they&#39;re not real they&#39;ve gotten more sophisticated now they&#39;re impersonating me on telegram messaging people privately saying we&#39;re beta testing a wallet and give us some ADA to test it there&#39;s never underestimate the cleverness of these people so just use common sense I will never ask you to send me money I have plenty of money I&#39;m okay I will never ask you for your private keys and I will never do personal tech support for you or ask you with a personal invitation for a beta test if I break that rule I will call you and send you a picture of myself or sign a message with my PGP key my PGP fingerprint is on my Twitter feed if at any time you think you&#39;re dealing with me and you want to verify Who I am ask me to send over a sound clip a picture or a signed message with my PGP key and I&#39;ll be happy to do that and a person who physically can&#39;t do that so use some common sense it&#39;s incredibly frustrating Twitter is just a bad platform it&#39;s not innovative it&#39;s old it really needs a refresh they need to think more carefully about it and you know slack has its issues too we originally created the Cardno and a theorem classic communities in slack we had thousands of members we ended up abandoning those platforms because we had the exact same issue people would create BOTS box what impersonate certain key members and send everybody messages saying give us ADA or give us either give us your money use my ether wallet that was the big scam it was not my ether while it was a fake wallet and that&#39;s just reality that we live in it&#39;s nothing new in the 1990s people from India would call people saying that they&#39;re from Microsoft and your computer&#39;s about to end and you need to give them your credit card number for them to fix the viruses on your system they still do this scam 20 years later welcome to people who have no life and they want to use their surplus time to steal from you so anyway that&#39;s what it is good news is we have tools to verify ourselves including digital signatures Craig Wright does apparently know how to use them I do so ask me for a signature if you think it&#39;s me and you&#39;re not sure okay card Oded a card yay card on a debit card let&#39;s talk about that card on a debit card is not an io HK initiative it&#39;s a cardinal foundation initiative what ended up happening was in the early days of Cardno there was a good commitment that card on a foundation got from a firm in Europe to provide debit cards to people and they thought that that would be a wonderful thing but then Visa and MasterCard got much more restricted on the prepaid debit card market and some regulatory changes happen that made these things more difficult so it delayed the Foundation&#39;s progress occasionally I check in but the foundation is leading that effort so we&#39;re not involved directly in that I&#39;d love to see one if one exists it&#39;d be very easy for us to integrate it into cardano&#39;s via Daedalus just like we&#39;re doing a ledger integration into deathless four ledger so when those things are available we&#39;ll be happy to work with the foundation to get them integrated into our our clients but at the moment I don&#39;t have any information that&#39;s a that&#39;s a project the foundation is completely in charge of and we don&#39;t tend to get involved in those types of projects okay did you do let&#39;s see here you ah geo stamping and the ziane relationship so let&#39;s talk about that so Zn is an interesting firm it&#39;s relied by a guy named Michael Minelli and Michael is he actually has a Wikipedia page if you&#39;re interested about it went to Harvard and London School of Economics is a very elegant guy lives in London he&#39;s a member of the City of London and he runs a consultancy that has for more than two decades worked with the banks called Zn and he&#39;s written a lot of great things in fact I think I don&#39;t have it here it looks like I have it on my bookshelf outside uh there he even wrote a wonderful book called the price of fish smart guy so Michael Parsons is a very good friend of Minelli they&#39;ve known each other for a long time and Minelli is always interested in doing research in the cryptocurrency space and so while I which Kate does a lot of hardcore research into things like protocol design and security and Zika snarks and these things we don&#39;t think so much about layered you know uses of that technology as much as we should like what are the law and policy implications or you know how would you build a geo standing system or these types of things so the foundation approached again to basically write a collection of reports I think they come out every month or two months and every one of them is topical like ones on quantum computing and ones on geo stamping and so forth endurance and each report kind of covers what&#39;s going on in space and how you know best practices from legacy industries can be used in the blockchain industry for these particular things or perhaps an innovative new protocol idea the hope is that these reports could eventually be turned into layer 2 layer 3 protocols or to DAPs that could run on card ATO and it&#39;s a way to kind of dream up how do we make card on a more useful so all the reports are open they&#39;re on the Zn website I think the foundation also releases them on their website and highly encourage reading them they&#39;re usually written by domain experts and they&#39;re pretty comprehensive they give me anywhere from 10 to 60 pages and they come out pretty frequently there&#39;s also a collection of events that distributed futures has where the foundation shows up and it&#39;s able to network with people in the city of London and network with the brighter Cheil community in the UK and those events have been tremendously successful and attended by some pretty prominent people from all weeks of life from politicians the bankers to others so given its cost and given the output it looks like a pretty good program and it&#39;s nice to have these types of things around it&#39;s like a little cherry on the top of the cake okay what do you think will be the Year kirtana to replace ether a smart contract platform and for IC o---- fundraising i cos are going through a slight challenge at the moment in that the art of using an ICO has been perfected we have the RC 20 token there&#39;s dedicated firms that charge you anywhere between 8% the 30% of the offerings basically structure the sale give you a saft agreement all this stuff so the act of doing everything that we figured out how to do for theorem has been franchise while abled and is a science now people know how to do it really well and etherium is used as the majority platform because it&#39;s the most secure it&#39;s the largest and it&#39;s the best understood and the best tooling exists there we get all that tooling for free with the ke VM so anything is built for theory we runs on our system but it runs faster safer and better so if people are just doing an apples-to-apples we&#39;d be great platform for that but we&#39;re entering ICO 2.0 which is the notion of the security token so what&#39;s happening is we&#39;re starting to see a crystallization of regulatory understanding of the IC o---- to the point where regulatory agencies are creating bespoke regulations for IC OS so what that means is instead of saying well we&#39;ll get around to it later later has come and you&#39;re either going to be something regulated by the CFTC and if for example in the United States the commodities future Trading Commission or the Securities Exchange Commission which is for securities so whether your utility token which will look like a commodity or a security token which looks like a stock or something like that so what&#39;s probably going to up happening is that people who do I cos moving the future will issue a security token and those will be traded on special domains and have special exemptions whether it be reggae through the JOBS Act reg D through accredited investors or a gas for abroad and when they&#39;re traded they&#39;re traded on regulated exchanges of Broker Dealer licenses and we&#39;re starting to see those materialize like coinbase and t0 and so forth then if the token has real utility and it actually really does become decentralized and the person who sold it is no longer necessary to maintain it like what&#39;s recently happened with aetherium the token may become a non security and as a consequence of being a non security it would then be regulated by a different agency in this case probably the CFTC for the United States so it could then be traded on the global Bitcoin exchanges that we see like that stamp and bit ryx and finance and the rest of the guys who don&#39;t have specialized licenses or are pursuing those licenses and then you wouldn&#39;t need to do all the things you need to do with an IPO or a normal securities offering or any of these normal exemptions so there&#39;s a whole industrial move towards building capabilities to facilitate that security token ecosystem and some of those are building bespoke smart contracts some of those are issuing new types of token standards to go up beyond the ERC 20 some of those are building custodial services and so forth the whole lot of things and so forth now when those things eventually materialize and build out I think Cardinal by nature of its architecture will probably be a really compelling platform to capture that part of the marketplace but it&#39;s gonna be a huge market and there&#39;s going to be many many players in that marketplace on both the issuance the distribution and the trading of these things then when it escapes and it becomes a its own token I think Cardona will also be a very compelling platform because our counting layer is being built as a multi asset layer so it&#39;s kept simple on purpose but it&#39;s really really good to keep your base token Oh basically fast and efficient and not bottle necked and then you could use that based open to connect to an overlay protocol in our architecture we call cordon o CL but using our site change protocol you just as easily can connect that to another overlay protocol for example wharves is deploying as an ER C 20 token on aetherium but you don&#39;t actually get any utility or use out of that you have to send it to an overlay system that actually runs its own BF T and it does all magic and it&#39;s doing its own thing so the cream filling the magic all the good stuff happens off chain or in a different system and the main chain because it&#39;s secure and reliable is used for counting but it&#39;s expensive so on an apples-to-apples basis we&#39;re gonna be cheaper faster more secure better by nature of the way we&#39;ve designed things so I think in those use cases cardano&#39;s very compelling for these tokens to stay resident there as opposed to building their own block chaining trying to construct their own network effect so I think in both environments the enclaves that will be constructed for security tokens to facilitate the next generation of icos that are better from a regulatory and tax perspective and from a place for these tokens that are issued to live until they&#39;re used to feel empower their dabs that run a side chains both of those marketplaces were going to be quite competitive with moving in 2019 2020 as these capabilities start turning on still early days and honestly what I really despise is this idea of vendor lock-in I mean if you look at the days of the Internet in the 1990s it was like you&#39;re a web developer you had to write broken code to work with Internet Explorer in ER ie6 was such a bad product and and you could either say I&#39;m gonna follow CSS standards or I&#39;m not gonna follow CSS standards but I&#39;m not gonna follow it because I have to get my web site to render on this thing that 90% of the people live on and then to make matters worse Microsoft tried to get people into a development paradigm called ActiveX which was horribly insecure and was very bad for everybody but it also locked people Internet Explorer and that we see companies running around and say use aetherium or use a OS or use iota or use card on oh and wait at the end of the day if your adapt developer you&#39;re not in love with infrastructure infrastructure is a service provider to you it&#39;s an enabler for you as a DAP developer to carry out your vision and to maximize the benefit to your customers if you are told that you now are a slave to the infrastructure that you&#39;re locked into how are we any better than the closed Gardens of Windows and Internet Explorer from the 1990s we&#39;re making as an industry the same mistakes again so one of the things I really really really care about is saying allow people to treat infrastructure like they treat Web Services for example if you&#39;re building an application you can deploy it on Amazon Web Services or Rackspace or another vendor and you make that decision based upon what is the best in terms of security and cost and utility to my customers and if it turns out that you were wrong you redeploy it on other infrastructure and that&#39;s not as hard as you&#39;d think similarly if you have a smart contract you have a DAP you should be able to run that DAP on that best ledger for that DAP and maybe multiple Ledger&#39;s because you&#39;re doing different things and they&#39;re consuming that way so the whole point of the Daedalus model that we&#39;ve developed for card ATO is this idea of an application ecosystem and it&#39;s blockchain agnostic so you&#39;ll be able to deploy that on aetherium or deploy that on cardona you want to go live in hell deploy Neos you can go do that and that&#39;s a decision you make based upon what&#39;s best for your customers and if you make the wrong choice you should be able to lift up and go into a different ecosystem and it does not compromise your customer experience or else what we&#39;ve done is just created a completely new 1990s scenario we&#39;ve created another Microsoft congratulations were decentralized but actually centralized we don&#39;t have gatekeepers but we actually do have gatekeepers it&#39;s not the ethos as a space it&#39;s not what people have signed up for so to me I think that that&#39;s an a very important point that is often missed and in the tribalism the space and because we sometimes have financial incentives to say things people say things to try to encourage you to do things that aren&#39;t good for your ultimately your goal in your customer base okay no Cassie what else here who would you rather punch in the face dan Livermore Roger ver well Roger is actually a pretty cool guy I&#39;ve never had a fight with him and I like Roger I mean I have disagreements about be it between cash and other things mostly about the purpose of it but at the end of the day I&#39;ve never really viewed him as a bad actor and it&#39;s you know I&#39;d story often tell about Roger one time years ago he said hey let me show you something special and he went to a barbershop a coffee shop in a restaurant all back-to-back-to-back and in each case he got them to accept bitcoin it&#39;s where roger came from he&#39;s that good and he&#39;s pretty magical and his ability to get people to adopt things I think that he perhaps hasn&#39;t fully thought out the consequences of bitcoin cash or the consequences of the ecosystem he&#39;s built and also it&#39;s incredibly regrettable that he&#39;s working with or associating with Craig Wright who I believe is a sociopath he&#39;s a bad actor but at the end of the day I don&#39;t have any issue with Roger the other thing is Roger is really good at martial arts and he can kick my ass so I really want one out of punch that guy in the face as for Dan larimer dan is Dan so let&#39;s see what else we have here what will happen new mergo I which kick contract for developing Cardno by 2020 we will have a by 2020 we will have a fully operational Treasury that and I&#39;ll stick around until that&#39;s done so if it bleeds in the 2021 we&#39;ll keep working till that&#39;s done and at that point there&#39;s going to be specifications a card ah no improvement proposal process competing clients written in different languages by different development teams it&#39;ll be very decentralized ecosystem and I ohk would love to continue doing research and engineering but you the ADA holders will be able to make that choice so we&#39;ll submit a funding proposal to keep the contract going but you get to decide whether that happens and that&#39;s how it should be at the end of day engineers work for you the owners of the pro call and if it&#39;s truly a decentralized protocol the holders of Aida own that protocol so they ultimately should make the decision of who are the best teams to carry that protocol forward furthermore you need more than one because you achieve diversity and resilience by having more than one you know you don&#39;t want a situation where you have key man risk where if someone gets hit by a bus someone gets compromised someone decides to start eating mercury on a regular basis and goes insane that just makes no sense because if that occurs you all of a sudden have lost your protocol so so it&#39;s very important that the community have the tools and the capital to be able to make sure that there&#39;s diversity in the development and there the thought innovation and a very strong foundation to get performance to get all these layer 2 technologies where they need to go and then finally to get all the governance and the other components put into the system some of these can be done in parallel some of them require some sequential work some as incredibly difficult research other is just an engineering problem where we have to think carefully like with the UT Excel wallet about how we want to do it and why we&#39;re doing that and so forth so that&#39;s what&#39;s gonna happen we&#39;re still going to be around and we&#39;re going to be asking for additional funding but you get to decide whether alright see here we you do a lot of good interesting questions Japanese crypto question see what else we got here it&#39;s usually easier to do this when you have two people because one guy follows the questions and then picks out some so there&#39;s a continuous flow next time I should probably do that all right well anyway Japanese exchanges does come up a lot you know Japan is a frustrating market I&#39;ve been there a lot I actually spoke with some of the ministries I spoke to Mehdi and mystery of internal affairs last time I was there and we&#39;ll just keep talking to him in the early days there was no regulation you just do whatever the hell you wanted to do and obviously that created a lot of big problems and people got a bit too aggressive and ambitious so what ended up happening is that they decided to regulate the market and they passed a very aggressive law to regulate the exchanges implicit in that was also a notion of restrictions and token listings so basically they said not only are we going to tell the exchanges how to operate for the best interest of the people we&#39;re also going to tell the exchanges what tokens they can trade that&#39;s fine because then you have some rules to follow and you go follow them and you try to convince people that you&#39;re good but the problem is it&#39;s never actually been clear what the standards are to be listed on exchanges and at the moment there&#39;s actually D listings happening privacy coins for example are not faring so well in Japan at some point Japanese exchanges and the FSA the regulatory body that&#39;s responsible for this will reach some sort of broker compromise about how listings are going to occur and at that point I think ADA will fare very well because on every single metric we look good there&#39;s tons of transparency and credibility in the project the technology&#39;s world-class we have independent auditing there&#39;s oversight in the project use of funds is extremely reasonable and very transparent is a huge public team that has a multi-year commitment it&#39;s extremely hard to find anything that has an equivalent level of commitment to producing value as our team there&#39;s certainly a lot of people doing interesting things but at the end of the day I think we&#39;re the best a little biased but at the end of the day I do think we&#39;re the best we also have a strong ties to Japan we have a research lab at Tokyo Institute of tech a lot of people in Japan love EDA and it would be fundamentally unfair for the Japanese government to tell them that the only way they can trade ADA is to go abroad to exchanges Japan cannot regulate because they&#39;re abroad so I think that will fare well it&#39;s just unfortunately because of the coin check incident because of the multiple SROs because of ambiguity in the law and regulatory uncertainty people are following a very conservative approach and there&#39;s really isn&#39;t a financial incentive or a rush for the FSA to move quickly they&#39;re going to move in a very systematic and methodical way and to decide what&#39;s best for them and for the people of Japan my hope is that the other day we farewell but we&#39;ll find out and we&#39;ll do our best to try to convince people in that jurisdiction that ADA should be part of the marketplace it would be extremely unfortunate to just have ripple either in Bitcoin because those are safe tokens for whatever the hell the reason but we might end up in that reality or we might end up in a reality where Japan is a world leader which lists hundreds of tokens it has tons of innovative projects the jury&#39;s out on which side is going to to happen and we&#39;ll let you know as we learn what do you think of Jackson Palmer creator of dogecoin is skepticism of Cortana when he said at a video that your white paper was a lot of fluff which part the proofs the many papers the peer-review process which is all public the the fact that we actually bothered to to build real security models and actually think of things in very foundational ways I mean forgive me I&#39;m I&#39;m not so good at taking a shiba inu and building an entire ecosystem around that you know cryptographers or cryptographers and engineers or engineers and marketers or marketers and they all do different things the point of the foundations of Cardno was to go to the most qualified people we could find in the world and get them to care about solving the problems we need to solve for Cardno to be stable and reliable that doesn&#39;t port into solving every single problem all at once it means you have to follow a process it means you have to define basic things like what is a blockchain what is proof of state can it ever even be secured under even unrealistic assumptions and then if you&#39;re going to make those assumptions realistic what do you give up in that process and can you still preserve your security model as you do that we have invested over 2.2 four million dollars written five papers in three years on just the or borås threat and we&#39;ve involved ourselves as institutions eight I think eight different universities at this point people who at those universities we&#39;ve gone to Europe cryptic crypto and euro crypt again and we&#39;ll be at other conferences soon showing off this technology and we&#39;re only about halfway through the research threat so when I read things like he said well there&#39;s just a lot of fluff in that paper first I&#39;d like to ask him does he actually even understand what the hell is in the paper because it wasn&#39;t written for him it was written for academics second did he even bother to take a look at the other things that we&#39;ve done like for example does he know how to build a UT excel wallet well he forked Bitcoin Satoshi came up with that did he well we didn&#39;t know how to build one so we figured it out and rewrote a formal specification for those things and that&#39;s what we do on the engineering side and that specification is so involved it took sebastian two hours to just do an overview of it and it&#39;s a beautiful piece of work and that&#39;s how we operate we&#39;re just walking our way through the space finding the problems that we need to solve and getting the right people onto those problems and solving them in the most rigorous academic engineering smart way possible and we write paper after paper after paper and not every paper solves every problem and not every paper is useful for every context but once we&#39;ve solved something and we&#39;re confident about that that&#39;s granite its bedrock and we&#39;re starting to really seize great fruits being produced at this point we&#39;re very confident that or borås Genesis is a wonderful consensus algorithm to run a cryptocurrency with and what you&#39;ll see our delegation and our incentives paper these three things together are everything that you would need to run something much better than Bitcoin much more performance than Bitcoin and it doesn&#39;t cause billions of dollars a year to run furthermore we&#39;re very confident in the code we&#39;ve written very confident in the designs that we&#39;ve come up with and we know where the deficits are we know where the bodies are buried and we know how to exhume them and put them in their proper places and we have a process for that in every single day we tirelessly work towards that process we keep innovating we keep growing we keep bringing people in we went from two people to a hundred and sixty people many of which hold PhDs many of which have strong professional reputations and have published hundreds of paper the programming language were writing this in the guy who created the programming language works for us and we&#39;re a lot of fluff and this is what I was talking about earlier about the tribalism and the noise in the vitriol in the space people see something and they say this doesn&#39;t immediately solve all my problems this doesn&#39;t immediately make everything great this hasn&#39;t somehow spins so magical that it invalidates every other project and therefore it&#39;s fluff yeah and to me that&#39;s just absurd you know the point is we&#39;re rebuilding the entire world financial system the one we have was not created overnight we inherited that system that was meticulously constructed decade by decade by decade by decade by people who came before us it is beyond arrogant to say that we can come in and rebuild this entire system in a single paper with a single codebase it&#39;s just it&#39;s just so insane what you do instead is you construct a process that is scaleable that is capable of welcoming new people in from different wakes of life different skill sets different cultures different languages that is capable of identifying the problems you need to solve to have a better system coming up with reliable solutions for those problems and then having a feedback mechanism to verify that those solutions work and are proper and then once you&#39;ve done that you&#39;ve made progress and you do it again and again and again it&#39;s like the scientific method everything we have in life that&#39;s good has come from the ability to make mankind stateful to preserve what we&#39;ve come up with and to be able to change things that we don&#39;t like instead of having to accept the status quo and cryptocurrencies are no different at all so I like our progress I like our process I like the things we&#39;ve accomplished I think that a lot of people are really starting to understand that this is a much bigger more ambitious project than they originally intended and they&#39;re starting to realize that we have an incredibly strong commitment to doing things in a smart way the other thing is this is not an IO HK project this is a collective project predictable network solutions works on this tweak works on this F p-complete works on this well type works on this Allied testing works on this Kubik works on this runtime verification works on this amore go works on this the Cardno foundation works on this 8x works on this amongst others and that&#39;s where we&#39;re at today the processes that we have will continue skel and one day we will have hundreds and then thousands of companies unified by peer-review formal methods and a very systematic rigorous way of going about things and eventually a decentralized form of governance it will take decades for us to perfect it and for the system to work well but it&#39;s the perfect system to build the world&#39;s next financial stack that&#39;s the point that&#39;s why we&#39;ve invested so much time and effort into all of these things so with all due respect that&#39;s what we&#39;re doing if you don&#39;t like it there are many other options on the marketplace that are better suited for you if you do like it welcome aboard grab a shovel African countries oh this is nearest dear to my heart so I went to Ethiopia to Addis Ababa and I went to Kigali in Rwanda and boy we had a great time we really enjoyed we really enjoyed talking to a lot of really interesting people and I learned a lot you know for example coming to Ethiopia to Addis Ababa I didn&#39;t realize that the coffee industry there is like as close to Game of Thrones as you can get and you have to be really careful with who you talk to it you take pictures with and so forth because it&#39;s almost like House Targaryen and House Lannister and house dark and so forth then I was like whoa okay but it&#39;s very old industry it&#39;s very prominent industry and it controls basically a large chunk of the country&#39;s economy about a million and a half farmers do nothing but coffee production so we had a lot of great discussions with the mystery of science and tech and we had a lot of great discussions with leaders living the World Bank and others who were embedded in Ethiopia about what would be low-hanging fruit for us to actually get a high impact low resource pilots that we could run showcasing the value of blockchain technology some of which could run on a permissionless ledger like card on oh and some of which could run on a per mission ledger like things like hyper ledger fabric or enterprise card on oh and so forth so in Ethiopia basically we agreed to host a class like we did in Barbados and Athens and have that class basically invite recent graduates from Ethiopian universities to sit down for two months and to learn lots about how to rope write code in Haskell and then if they&#39;re really good we&#39;ll offer them a job at i/o HK and then we&#39;ll put them onto a blockchain projects either permissioned or permissionless the ministry was very progressive they said not only do they want to do this class they wanted it to actually be all women what you said okay that&#39;s interesting let&#39;s go do it so we we agreed as assuming that they can source the candidates and we&#39;re already starting to send personnel from abroad into Ethiopia to begin preparations for that class it looks like the soonest we&#39;ll be able to run it will be October and it&#39;ll probably run to the end of the year we&#39;re going to incorporate a local subsidy in Ethiopia and artists and on the backs of the course the really good ones will hire and that team will work on blockchain based projects we&#39;ll probably do a pilot with that team in something involving supply chain management with coffee production it&#39;s a great really low-hanging fruit amazing industry to think about and there&#39;s a lot of return there which could touch pretty much everything from micro-insurance to microfinance to a lot of hacker tech revolutions some IOT stuff some AI stuff and so forth so that&#39;s going to be a fun jurisdiction plan and we have some great partners on the ground and John O Connor will make some community updates at some point about progress that&#39;s been made he&#39;s our director of African operations and he&#39;s embedded in Ethiopia and lives in honest three weeks every month and goes back to London for a week his family in both places in terms of Rwanda when I went there for vision Africa and I had a chance to talk to Kagame and other people it was a very interesting conference we we met a lot of really unique people I think there were leaders from over 10 or 15 African countries there and we got a sense that Rwanda is the fastest moving of all the African countries in terms of its agility and ability to adopt new ideas it&#39;s almost like the Singapore of Africa that said it&#39;s very small jurisdiction in a very small population relative to eat the OPI Ethiopia is about a hundred million people the AU is there it&#39;s it&#39;s got strong trading partnerships of Kenya and Nigeria and other large jurisdictions and much larger economy relative so Rwanda really looks like a good place to do fast pilots and basically get all the kinks and bugs worked out and get them localized and acceptable whereas Ethiopia looks like a larger growth market as does Nigeria and Kenya so both of them have their place in purpose and we&#39;ll probably be running things in both jurisdictions and we&#39;ll make specific announcements and these aren&#39;t the only two African countries will be in Kenya is probably the furthest along in terms of blockchain tech and there&#39;s some good entrepreneurs there like BIP ASA Nigeria also has probably one of the largest IT groups of people in Lagos so we&#39;ll definitely drop by there and have some fun but Africa is very important to I ohk and we&#39;re gonna be really scaling up African operations but my number one priority is getting Cardno to a better state so that takes priority and precedent over our evolution in the African market but long term I think that&#39;s the place where Cardno really has a chance to shine because we can show off a lot of cool tech like offline off chain payments using trusted hardware that&#39;s where these things like these private NPCs make a lot more sense it also gives us a chance to start exploring ancillary technology like incentivize mesh nets we even publish the paper on that called Mars so that&#39;s that&#39;s something I&#39;d highly recommend you read it came from Bernardo David so we&#39;re definitely gonna push hard in that jurisdiction and we&#39;re definitely gonna you know have a lot of fun in it but it is something that we have to enter in cautiously and systematically and it&#39;s probably going to take about three to five years to build up reasonable presence so a lot of the output and returns will not occur until about 2020 to 2025 I&#39;d say in that range but that&#39;s okay you know you have to be humble and you have to listen and you have to grow Carano ATMs so ATMs in general pretty cool space so there&#39;s a lot of software that has to be written to make items viable you can have a good server client model and we were really really hindered because we made some poor choices in the beginning of card oh no and one of the vendors that we worked with made some incredibly poor design choices that were almost recovered from but have really slowed things down but we kind of built a parallel track of code and we&#39;ve written out a rust library and we&#39;ve I can&#39;t spoil the surprise but come August there&#39;s gonna be something announced that&#39;s awesome for the like client the mobile client and the ATM type client so look out for that in terms of card on Oh ATMs in Japan there was a third party partner that that was keen on doing that and they wanted to deploy 50 ATMs prior to 2020 and they&#39;ve already deployed some Bitcoin ATMs in the jurisdiction and we answered a lot of technical questions about how to support Cardno and gave recommendations about the architecture but we don&#39;t physically own those devices and we don&#39;t operate them so we&#39;re not sure how they&#39;ve been deployed and when and if 8a supports going to be turned on but it would be nice to see that said we&#39;re really keen to investigate an open-source ATM design for Africa and we think that there&#39;s a lot of innovation that can happen there to create a low-cost ATM in the two to five hundred dollar price range because if you&#39;re talking about cryptocurrency adoption amongst the people who don&#39;t have it they need a cash in cash out point so yes you can send Bitcoin or ADA or ether to a made from a made in London to her mother in Manila well what is the mother going to do with it she needs a point to exchange it and sell it and if that exchange point takes a 20 or 30 percent premium then you&#39;re no better than a remittance transaction in fact you&#39;re worse because you&#39;re actually dealing with a more exotic more volatile asset with less liquidity than she would get if she got a Western Union transaction so if you had ATMs and these were reasonably well proliferated and they were run by independent merchants the fees would probably converge three to five percent over a period of time which is much better than the 15% remittance side of things so we do have a trusted hardware lab that we&#39;re building at the BTL the blockchain technology lab up at university of edinburgh it&#39;s led by vasily caecus and there&#39;s some joint funding from huawei in that lab and part of the things that lab is going to be looking into longer term our open source hardware solutions fullfil on the trusted hardware side and also for things like ATMs and key management so we&#39;ll create a reference design for that at some point and our hope is to see people build that by the way it&#39;s if you have a two hundred to five hundred dollar price point it&#39;s actually not hard to build two or three thousand of these and just give them away to small business owners the harder part is understanding can you get them to operate off-grid like how much would it cost for a satellite uplink and could you use micro satellites or mesh nets to be able to piggyback on to the main network and if there&#39;s a trusted hardware component even if they&#39;re asynchronous when they do reconnect you can get reliable and honest information assuming there&#39;s some finality in the chain so there&#39;s still a lot of technological challenges there but I do think we can overcome those particular challenges another big thing in Africa is so old saying batteries tend to grow legs and walk away and ATMs are no different satellite transceivers are no different so so you also have to think very carefully about where the deployment targets are specifically for Japan that was done by a third party and I don&#39;t follow that too closely I know some of my crew have seen the ATMs that are supposed to have for a to support but III haven&#39;t personally used them myself so I couldn&#39;t could let you know the debit card ATM stuff that&#39;s infrastructure separate from the things I which Kate works on or thinks about [Music] when lambo you know I always wonder why Lamborghini you know I Drive a Cadillac I have an XTS 2014 XTS it&#39;s great car got it for like twenty five thousand dollars highly recommend it&#39;s got magnetic suspension system it&#39;s got great brakes leather all throughout the seed has got a Bose sound system and it&#39;s 22 speakers he&#39;s talked about Lamborghini you know it&#39;s $200,000 for herecan or you know a gr doe is about a hundred thousand 150,000 you know your Aventador is probably 300k or more and Myrcella goes like 250 and then at the end of day you have a car that you&#39;re not going to drive more than a thousand miles a year that collects dust and it cost you $5,000 to change the oil if your brakes go bad those Brembo brakes are like 25 grand so you know why my Lambo why not something else and if you&#39;re gonna get a high-performance sports car then why not something interesting like a Ford GT or a Camaro you know by American there&#39;s some good cars there have you seen the Corvettes lately come on guys win Cadillac ct-6 the new 2019 ct6 550 horsepower twin turbo v8 and those turbos are right in the engine there&#39;s no lag with them and a 10 speed transmission thinking man&#39;s car okay in Indonesia and Amer go Amer go has a lot of great partnerships they&#39;re based in Singapore and Hong Kong and they have offices in Japan Vietnam Malaysia Indonesia and vias so they make great partnerships all around and where and when we can work with them we do they&#39;re really keen to do something in Taiwan and they&#39;re really keen to do something in both Malaysia and Indonesia and they already have some great contacts there and what&#39;s exciting is these are incredibly high population jurisdictions that are very malleable Indonesia is several hundred million people used to live in Jakarta Malaysia is also in the same population density and these are remittance countries so there&#39;s a ton of innovation that you&#39;d like to do on the payment system side and on the lending and in the insurance side in particular there&#39;s also big agricultural side so all the Agrotech work that we&#39;re doing in Ethiopia could potentially be ported there so I think a Mirko is very prescient in building good relationships in those jurisdictions and what we do is we talk about well capabilities and we ask them what capabilities do you guys need and what capabilities are we constructing and it helps us inform the roadmap so that we can better address the capabilities moving forward but you&#39;ll have to address those questions specifically to a mergo about the particulars strategy [Music] Porsche you know the 918 is pretty nice isn&#39;t it Creek right guys want me to talk about Craig right now we&#39;re gonna go down that road see Aaron Labs partnership there is going quite well actually I talked to them when I was in Japan their guys have already started talking about integration into the Finny four-car Donnell I actually saw one of the Finney&#39;s they brought a sample from their labs in Israel to Japan and it&#39;s really cool it&#39;s a cell phone and it actually has a trusted hardware module here that you slide up and so when you&#39;re doing things you push a button on it to authorize the transaction it&#39;s almost like having a ledger plugged into your phone so it will natively support ADA and we&#39;re just trying to figure out what&#39;s the best way of doing that right now our hope is to reuse everything that we&#39;ve constructed for ledger support and put it in for the for the Phinney but there&#39;s some architectural things we have to think really carefully about with them so we are actively discussing that with their engineers but once it&#39;s all said and done you guys can get if any and that Phinney can be used to store your ADA in a very secure way so you can write your recovery words and put them in a vault somewhere like a safety deposit box and you can have it on your phone and you ever lose the phone you can always restore it and otherwise you have a really easy mobile light wallet to be able to keep things so so will keep you advised on that one I think the Finney release date is October given the nature of their cycles what will likely happen is they&#39;ll do a firmware update to the TPM to support ADA because we probably won&#39;t make the October launch on that but we might legio support should be coming out right around that time where I&#39;m with card on a 1.4 if we can reuse a lot of that infrastructure it might be optimal I suspect what they&#39;re gonna do is run the rust code on their on their module not the Haskell code so we&#39;ll find out more about that as time permits but well we&#39;ll keep you updated trip to Israel you know Israel&#39;s great we went there for Yura crypt and yura crypt is just fun and it&#39;s actually I think the first time you&#39;re equipped I&#39;ve ever been held at Israel it was quite controversial because the Iranian cryptographers couldn&#39;t make it there but I also had a chance to visit Moshe and his guys and I met with the sarin labs people the saga people the orbs people the Endor people there&#39;s some good projects and the interesting projects and what amazed me is the ability to innovate without having to spend a lot so while some of these projects are well capitalized they&#39;re not actually expending a huge amount of money to execute and they have some very good talent and so Israel is as it&#39;s always been it&#39;s a huge innovation hub it&#39;s basically an oasis in the desert because of the hard work of the people who live there and the fact that we&#39;re in a new industry the cryptocurrency industry and no way changes the the commitment they have say we will about the politics it&#39;s a it&#39;s an innovation spot and will continue to be an innovation spot so a lot of people there were hungry they have a very strong commitment to doing interesting things and they really want to partner with everybody especially if those partnerships produce value so in a way that was incredibly fun because I sometimes have challenges partnering with people for whatever political reasons or in some cases like coin desk people go out of their way to just be dicks and so so it was nice to go to a place where people cared about the work and people cared about executing the roadmap and realized that you have to have strategic partners to be able to do that so Israel was quite successful and we&#39;ll go back from time to time the other nice thing about Israelis is they&#39;re willing to travel so you don&#39;t even have to go to Israel they&#39;ll come to you like I met with the Syrian guys in Japan for example okay I have enough time for one more question so let&#39;s let&#39;s have a good one come on guys hey Zeus you know Tasos is a really interesting a really really really interesting project you know it&#39;s one of those examples of where you have great people in a certain domain in this case Arthur is a very good engineer he&#39;s very bright guy and they don&#39;t actually know the other side very well at all they don&#39;t actually understand the business side or open source development but they think that that&#39;s easy so what they do is they structure something as an engineer would and then they say okay well a company here company here company here raise all this money get all these partners and capital pools here some goes here some goes here and it&#39;s a system right so if the system is all put together and these things are done huzzah and it all just works and then they say well what about people oh who cares about people people are fungible so just put whoever here and put whoever here and we don&#39;t really need real people we&#39;ll just hire them you know whatever we need to hire 10 people here at Hydra ten people there and that&#39;s what they did they put very bad people and key roles and they structured something that seemed from the outside to me to be designed to minimize liability at the expense of consumer protections and ability to execute okay and they paid a terrible terrible price for that in that the people that they put into key positions we&#39;re not vetted properly and not given the right controls and checks and balances to be able to execute or wash out so the project went through a lot of pain and a lot of heartache and this is really unfortunate because tezo&#39;s actually is doing some interesting things Mick liquidity are very interesting the use of a camel is actually a very interesting choice and there&#39;s a lot of innovation that can come they&#39;re starting to partner with the right people and if left to their own devices and you said all the drama of the sale the size of the offering the incentives behind the offering and if you were just to do an airdrop of Bitcoin and say this is Tasos I think a lot of people would would look at the project very positively and they would say that there&#39;s a lot of really interesting things here but unfortunately you cannot look at these projects in isolation you have to look at them with respect to everything that&#39;s happened and then the ecosystem upon which the project&#39;s lived in and projects like Tasos z/os and others all suffer from the same common sin which is they raise too much money you do not need two hundred million dollars to build a cryptocurrency even something is sanely complicated as Cardinal you do not need this kind of money you do not need a billion dollar gap fund or VC you don&#39;t need any of these things it&#39;s absurd if you look at some of the best venture capitalists in the world like John doar 192 I POS invested in Google invested in Intel the guy is is just walks on water he&#39;s a genius and he&#39;s he&#39;s really one of the best if you came to him and said for a completely new ecosystem that&#39;s very fragile very young completely new project we&#39;re gonna put four billion dollars in it would you like a billion dollars to go run a venture fund for that he would look at you like you&#39;re green eyed monster because at the end of the day all he knows that there is no responsible way to be able to invest that money and all you&#39;d be doing is just distorting salaries I mean there were people who went to John like Steve Jobs he went to John and said I&#39;m creating the iPhone we&#39;re gonna have applications on it I&#39;d like some venture capital to exist for people to build cell phone apps this is a very new concept they didn&#39;t put a billion dollars into it and this was Apple and Steve Jobs and the iPhone okay and there&#39;s a track record there and there&#39;s definitely a mass market whereas yoson kaizo seem much much smaller so the first common said I think is they were over funded and as a consequence of overfunding people don&#39;t talk about the technology the vision the mission the goals the dreams like we did with Bitcoin because there was no money in the beginning with Bitcoin the only thing we had was dreams and a mission they talked about how do I get my hands on a chunk of that massive amount of money that&#39;s just sitting there the second original thin is that somewhere along the way you have to learn that you&#39;re not the smartest person in the room you&#39;re not brilliant you have to listen to people my company is filled with people much smarter than me and much more capable than me and I love that because I can learn from them and because I can trust them to do things I could never do throughout my career maybe one day if I spent ten years I&#39;d be a decent cryptographer I&#39;d be a decent one not a good one and I have people in my company who are exceptional ones we have spent 20 years at that so why in God&#39;s name don&#39;t you just give that stuff to them and let them do their job and then you can negotiate how that&#39;s going to benefit the ecosystem as a whole one of the problems that I&#39;ve always had was Tasos interacting with Arthur and his team has been that I feel like they just think that they know the whole world and they have it all figured out no matter what advice you give them doesn&#39;t matter it&#39;s talking to a wall they&#39;ve figured it out and it&#39;s the same for Dan Larimer and it&#39;s the same for a lot of these guys like Craig right they all seem to be cut from a common cloth of we know more than everybody else and we know the future and you&#39;re just gonna sit back and watch us give you the future Steve Jobs thought he knew the future and he was fired from Apple he thought he knew the future with Lisa he&#39;s thought he knew the future with next computers and every single time he released these things they were always too late too expensive and they really weren&#39;t what they promised to be and it was only after he worked was John Lasseter and the guys from Pixar and he just kind of got his ass reamed to him for 10 years that he actually learned the value of listening and learning and when he started doing that he was able to do some very amazing things like when he came back to Apple in 1997 it was dying they were literally months away from bankruptcy and he had to do something that Steve Jobs in his 20s could never do he had to call up Bill gay and make a deal with him and convince him to put millions hundreds of millions of dollars into Apple to keep it alive he had to make Internet Explorer the default browser for Apple he had to have Bill Gates appear on a stage behind him on a giant screen talking over him like bills won but he had to do that because he knew that was the only way to save the company and it was the only thing he could do to give him the moral authority to go and renegotiate lots of employment contracts it was not easy in 1997 at the height of the you know the frothing of the.com boom to keep your employees imagine when you have a guy your company who&#39;s a world-class engineer and you&#39;re paying him a hundred and twenty thousand dollars a year because you&#39;ve cut a salary eight times and his stock options are worthless having a friend in the valley say that he can make four hundred thousand dollars plus options to go to that guy and tell him he has to take another pay cut and that&#39;s what Steve did and he did it successfully and now apples what it is today and he did that because he had humility and the ability to listen and he created moral authority that&#39;s missing and a lot of these projects it their all incentivized by the wrong things and they&#39;ve built very strong cults of personality around them if you want to see what true humility is just go to youtube and enter in Steve Jobs Apple 1997 Bill Gates or some search parameter like that and watch the video you&#39;ll see Bill behind him you&#39;ll see Steve getting booed on a stage by his own people but he knew that&#39;s what needed to be done and I just don&#39;t see that from a lot of projects because a lot of projects at the end of the day aren&#39;t about innovation they&#39;re not about changing things they&#39;re about how do we make people as rich as possible and if the success factor of a project is you participated in the ICO and you&#39;ve managed to find an idiot to buy the tokens from you at a multiple of what you paid for so you got yours we are no better as an ecosystem and no better as a community than the people that we seek to replace we have people who do this every day they&#39;re coke goldman sachs if you read the emails between the traders who sold junk financial products the people for the 2008 collapse and you see how they said well it&#39;s junk but I managed to sell it how are we in morally any better if we do as a space the same thing and unfortunately I see that in a lot of projects so I think that needs to change I think we need to be more humble I think we need to listen to people and I think we need to be a bit more careful with our words and a bit more careful with our judgments at the end of the day you&#39;re not always going to agree with people and at the end of the day you&#39;re not always going to like people but you have to work with them and you have to find some way to respect them I don&#39;t always agree with Vitalik but I&#39;ve never had a bad conversation with him and I do respect him he&#39;s a good guy at the end of the day and he does good work and I will never in my life ever say that he doesn&#39;t care about aetherium or the mission of aetherium or the goals of aetherium we strongly disagree on the dow hack and we strongly disagree about a lot of the things that have happened but it&#39;s water under the bridge it happened we went our own way but I respect him as a person and I respect his leadership and I respect that he makes good decisions sometimes bad decisions but at least he&#39;s making decisions with humility and an open heart I cannot say the same about certain other people in the space and I hope we as a space grow up a little bit and we realized that we only have a small window of time to actually affect and make real change and we only have a small window of time to prove ourselves to be better than those who came before us if we squander that window yes we&#39;ll get rich and some of us already have gotten rich and we may even be able to keep the wealth that we&#39;ve made but we haven&#39;t improved the world and all we&#39;ve done is given the very people that we sought to replace better tools to make our lives more miserable better tools to freeze our assets better tools to enforce civil asset forfeiture better tools to track every purchase that we&#39;ve made better tools to compromise our privacy and reduce us all to a big data problem that AI can parse and decide who&#39;s good and who&#39;s bad that&#39;s all we&#39;ve accomplished so yeah congratulations you get a but you&#39;ve traded your soul for it and everyone else&#39;s future for it so with respect to these types of projects I would hope that they realize that they have a tremendous social responsibility they have a tremendous obligation to the space and when you&#39;re given that much capital you must invest it wisely and you must have humility it will run out one day and you have to be accountable for how you spend it anyway thank you guys so much for your time this was a fun two hours I hope to do this again and anyway go car dot oh and good luck Croatia Cheers

MACHINE-GENERATEDSOURCE ↗

Surprise AMA with Charles

Related talks