perfect see here so the link is that on Twitter hey guys another surprise a ma said you guys love them so much I'm gonna post a link on the telegram channels just give me a moment and we'll get started in just a few minutes [Music] meantime you can look at my shiny head okay all right we'll start in just a few minutes all right okay welcome everybody thank you so much for coming into the surprise AMA I had a little bit of time today so I figured I'd do one of these the community seems to like it so it's always a lot of fun anyway I'll probably be here for maybe 45 minutes an hour unless we get some really really good deep questions and I just keep rambling and rambling and then I'll just go until someone grabs me or something like that totally unplanned but that's okay all right so let's go ahead and get some questions going and let's start from the top let's see what we got all right well we'll start with probably the one of the most interesting fights recently it says tell us about the twitter fight with v so no Twitter fight with V yet but basically what happened was that we had a thread about Ora Boris Vitalik posted some questions and concerns about Ora Boris I answered metalic answered back and then I realized that reddit probably wasn't the best of mediums so I had a discussion with the scientists behind Ora Boris and I said could we write a formal rebuttal and basically what we did was we sat down and tried to find as much information as we could about Kasper which was extremely difficult because there's lots of different papers Vlad's Kasper there's Vitalik scaz ber there's like two or three white papers there's some fa Q's apparently there were some repos that formalized some stuff but they've been pulled and we may best effort to try to understand as much as we could about Kasper and and we tried to do a fair comparison but unfortunately Casper's not written in a way that makes it particularly easy for an academic comparison between it and our protocol so we we did our best we posted the rebuttal Vitalik s-- response was to say it was pathetic call us liars and then say that it was a some sort of hit piece I guess he's not used to being challenged and I'm guess he's not used to having and I could rebuttal makes sense because he dropped out of first semester and he never went through that process personally but the the rebuttal that we provided was what wouldn't one expect if they go through a standard peer review and they had submitted a paper or they asked a colleague to look at it so anyway we might write some more we might not just depends on how we feel but we think the things we said were perfectly reasonable and we're pretty proud of our protocol some things that Vitalik wrote were quite strange like we're violating the f philippi impossibility theorem not sure how but I guess he asserts that and other such things and you know it is what it is and we're pretty happy with our strategy all of the orb or scrapers have been accepted at major conferences people from all over the world from China to Japan to all the European countries to the United States have looked at it and we've gotten a lot of great feedback things like finality can be added you know we already have a probabilistic notion of it and we're pretty happy with the protocol also huge amount of work has been done to verify the proofs of the protocol and that we have two different ways of proving the core claims of or borås both have been published and gone through peer review we also have formal verification of many of the proofs using Isabel thanks to Cohen's work at Cambridge so there's been about three years worth of work that we've put into the to the effort and we've gotten tremendous feedback from people all over the world and we're pretty happy about it one little caveat Vitalik said well we could have simply emailed him or had a conversation about Casper what's extraordinary about that statement is despite the fact that we've been publicly working on cat or horse for over three years I think he never really reached out to us we saw him at financial crypto we saw him at the Bitcoin winter school in Shanghai and other places and despite the fact that we keep crossing paths didn't really seem to care too much about asking our scientists in person about how does or Bohr's work or if there was any potential to collaborate between the teams but now that we're having a public rebuttal apparently we should keep it to email or something like that or our rebuttal is apparently a hit job so that's that good for them and we're just gonna keep chipping away we got some great things coming for for Ora Boris to accelerate downloading the blockchain we got some things to add some accelerated transactions get better finality with them we got some things coming to add sharding to it and we're really excited about the future of the protocol and the science really looks beautiful and we're starting to get to those fine tuning pieces to make the protocol really awesome and we're extremely excited about the formal verification side of things where we can actually write a spec and prove some interesting properties out our formal methods team is just salivating at that opportunity so overall we're we're on track things are looking good science is looking good and I look forward seeing everybody at crypto and at CCS and future conferences thanks for all the support okay let's go through okay when mobile wallet one ledger okay so this is real good question so the Haskell code that we have isn't so good at the moment for mobile devices or ledger devices or ATMs or Intel SGX or these types of things and we recognize that we realize that it takes quite a bit of time for us to get some form of a unified wallet architecture going and that's a slightly orthogonal task to the tasks that we have to introduce smart contracts and full decentralisation to the system so what I didn't want to do was create sequential dependencies where we basically said all right well we'll do decentralisation smart contracts then we'll get back to the mobile wallet we had enough resources to go parallel so I ordered the construction of a half of a rust version of our code base and we're going to do our first demo of the command line interface come September there's also a wallet coming out very soon we'll make an announcement about that August 15th based on the rust client so basically that's going to be the foundation I think for our mobile strategy over the next six to nine months and we've already tested the rest code on Android and iOS it worked very well and we think that we could definitely use that as part of a mobile strategy so we're having some internal discussions about what we're going to do with that code what we need to do with that code and how we're going to wire on a nice front end to it the nice part about the way we designed Daedalus is that it's based on the library called react polymorph which is something we built in-house and we think that that code is quite portable to mobile experiences and we've already done some work from that respect so sooner than you think probably later than now as for Leger right now the balls in their court to do a firmware update treasurers also expressed interest and there seems to be an alternative team vacuum labs it's working on that and we'll do what we can to try to accelerate that as much as possible so it's going to come at or around or a little a bit after card on a 1.4 which is currently slated for October so before the end of the year most likely but there are some factors that our hand because we can only take it so far and then we have to wait for the devices to update we did change a few things we have a new dress format which is much shorter than the old address format we have sequential index.html it's instead of random and xhd walls which restore much faster and a lot of other little things that you would like to have with a Leggero treszura device so it's important to get those then over what we currently have so we'll make a dedicated announcement when we have more information about it but for the time being there's certainly a lot of interest on our end on their end and we're all kind of working towards that goal it's just there's mountains of work to do all around and I guess we're all kind of getting around to it so anyway let's see here what stops Cardinal from being number one right now that's kind of a fun question the reality is that for all crypto currencies you need something called liquidity liquidity utility and community these are kind of the three different parameters that you look at these types of things so the liquidity is working you buy it what exchanges trade it who's dealing with it you know or how many market makers are there is there institutional money or not and what that does is it tends to derive lots of people in the space get you media exposure and build up the brand name and really get that token out into the collective consciousness community is of what you do with all of that momentum and collective consciousness who's gonna latch on to it and you know what are they gonna say about it how they going to propagate it and so forth and utility is what once they've collected and once they have it what can they do with it so in the beginning we were all just payment systems and then after aetherium we were smart contract systems and now there's all these next-generation applications that people are thinking about it's a consequence of the smart contract revolution so to be a great cryptocurrency you have to have all three so we're working real hard to try to improve liquidity we're working real hard to try to improve the community and our hope is to get the Cardinal foundation to make some pretty sizable investments that towards the end of the year and go all throughout next year to really market and bring up the community management side do Kili or engagement key leader profiling and get some dedicated community management for certain communities like China South Korea Japan because we just seemed to not have as much momentum as I would hope and I really really would like the foundation to invest more in there and hopefully we'll get there I in terms of utility you know the strategy has always been let's keep augmenting the code updating the code and adding new features and functionality so smart contracts are definitely going to come the yellow test nuts out the K EVM test that's out Plutus is evolving a pretty rapid pace I was super excited about that we have a dedicated smart contracts product manager we've been testing beta chimeric assets and we're really excited about this idea of what people when people can do icos on our platform and issue their own tokens on our platform we've been talking to a lot of people about that and we're quickly converging to a point where we're going to match or exceed the functionality of our competitors and market that's kind of step one because the functionality of our competitors and market isn't so good user experience isn't so good speed isn't so good there's there's a lot of problems there and so a lot of improvements have to be made so we have to go above and beyond that and we have a lot of strategies and we're just trying to roll things out as quickly as we can and it's quite difficult through that on our side and 60 people wake up every day who think a lot about priorities and what we need to do who we need to talk to we bring in a lot of contractors to do specific things just to accelerate things like for example we get asked a lot like when is the Linux wallet coming and the reality is we could launch a Linux wallet today the problem is that the way the filesystem for Linux works in the way that we store files right now for Cardno it would be a very bad user experience to do the ID no dependencies so the only way to solve that is to is to get the 1.3 million files that we currently have and compress it down to about 40,000 or so and we have a strategy for doing that for 1.4 so it takes time and it takes effort and we're moving our assets to get there but unfortunately it's in this environment can seem slow to people on the outside but things are getting better 1.3 shipped people really love the reduction memory utilization they really love the three to 5x performance improvement on the network side of things and we just keep seeing the the software improving and improving and improving and we're just going to keep at it and one day you're gonna wake up and it's just gonna look like a totally different experience and product than it looked like when you started and that's really the goal so liquidity utility community luck that's really what you got to do and we're gonna keep pushing hard on and we'll get there okay yeah so what do you think the cardinal ADA will have for real-world use cases for everyday people you know that's the that's the $64,000 question that all cryptocurrencies suffer from when are we there you know it's kind of like when the internet first came out you know as bunch of bearded nerds and like me they were probably not the skinniest people and they kept saying that's this whole internet thing is gonna go change the world and make everything wonderful and we all kept saying well when is that going to happen and then they they would point to their you know twenty eight hundred baud modem and they were there very slowly loading JPEGs and their static websites and say well I see it's there you know and they had their command line interface browsers and so forth and they say well it one day and then you know we woke up and now we Facebook and YouTube and the Internet is a vital component of our lives so the key to getting cryptocurrency adoption is to find ways to take existing experiences and see where they can have value-added to them through crypto so either you try to solve problems that are endemic to the current structure of markets for example I'm deeply concerned about censorship with social media platforms and you know that's less of a user experience and it's more of a philosophical concern and we're starting to see a definite trend where any speech that people don't like is just labeled a particular type of speech and that gives them justification for silencing a particular person and you always start with the most extreme elements because those most extreme elements are very easy to get rid of it's kind of like when Obama made the decision to kill on we're all a locky really bad guy and so it was pretty easy for people to accept us killing him but on the other hand he was a US citizen not charged with a crime in a non-combat setting denied due process who was effectively assassinated by the government and philosophically to say that one can do that is a pretty dangerous precedent so similarly censorship works that way cryptocurrencies are a key antidote to this because they can create a payment system and incentive system for people to basically build a second internet to host content on and that's something that's going to probably over the next 5-10 years become a big deal and as the intellectual dark web starts to grow we're definitely gonna see a huge culture clash that occurs there between those who wish the silence and those who wish to speak especially speak inconvenient things second you know it's it's a great system for getting value to people who are having a real hard time transporting value around are getting value to them for example we think a lot about Africa I'm just about to go to South Africa and spend some time at a conference there and hopefully meet up with the president and while there you know we talked about Agrotech a lot because that's a huge part of the effort and I economy yeah in Ethiopia you know 1.5 million people grow coffee and a lot of those people have a heck of a time getting insurance getting loans getting access to financial and a lot of their interactions their business interactions are paper-based or oral and as a consequence they're not recorded so it's really difficult to understand how do we implement sustainable farming practices it's really difficult to understand what the supply chain looks like and so forth so really where you see real world adoption is when you can blend the old and the new when you can take processes and change it just ever so slightly for example a lot of farmers Ethiopia use cell phones and text messages for price discovery they'll send text messages find out what the washing stations are charging so you can you can usually take that experience they're used to and just add a little bit more to it and all of a sudden now you have a digital identity and now you have a way of inputting data into a supply chain oh and by the way you can merge that with a system like card on oh and then you can use card on Oh as a system to get lending to them and to create new kinds of financial products instead of I things like stumping which it's where you've chopped down the tree and you let it regrow and you get two to three hundred percent more coffee production and there's hundreds of examples like that you can tease out where you have an old process and if you just apply something like a blockchain to it then once you've identified everybody and you have a payment system installed then you can just naturally all of a sudden interact with millions of new customers and you can globalize them for the first time which gives them access to better markets more fair markets and allows governments and private industry to make some decisions about how do they want to incentivize certain behavior like sustainable farming practices or other things like that so I think that's really where we're going you know it's not dramatic where we're gonna wake up when the dollar is gone and Bitcoin has replaced it it's more of an iterative thing where people who already are going to get digitized and globalized and get online this huge tsunami wave of billions of people over the next 10 20 years they're going to get online into an ecosystem where they have more capabilities and those capabilities do not rely upon strongmen or middle men of necessity rather there's decentralized protocols that enable them to be able to get insurance and to get lending and and so forth so that's one of our goals is a company I which Kay and Cardinals really vision to be that financial stack to get us there and that's my hope now we're not the only player stellar certainly trying to make some inroads and ripples trying to make inroads and there are some people in the etherion community who really care about this a lot Elizabeth Basilio with the paces but in Kenya for years now and she's done some exceptional work so it is really humbling to see how many people in our space really do care about this problem and are working hard on this problem and we're real excited to collaborate with them where we can or to learn from them in competition so that's that's all I have to say about that any thoughts on the et Cie summit yeah it's gonna be a lot of fun you know et Cie has been ironically despite its very stressful beginnings one of the most then and relaxing projects I've I've ever seen in my life you know it is just doing its own thing there are a lot of independent dev teams they're real passionate they're real innovative they're creating their own wallets like emerald wallet they're proposing their own version sidechains community came together got its own monetary policy sorted they needed money for funding of development community managers communicate together got some money for that community came together got listed on coin base and I don't really have to do a lot you know and nobody's really in charge it just kind of runs itself and you know that's how all cryptocurrency should be that's a pretty amazing thing you know we release mantas we've done already one major update to it and in my opinion it's the best etherion client on the market and the summit we're gonna show off some new features we've been working on like aetherium support and ER c20 support and so forth and some enhancements we've made to the wallet and kind of discussed the end of your roadmap and then we'll talk about some innovations we've made a tie which k research for example we have this concept of NEPA pow's non-interactive proofs of proof of work which are kind of like the ultimate solution for proof of work side chains in the ultimate solution for really efficient proof of work wallets as if you're in classic is a proof of work and will stay as a proof of work cryptocurrency pretty exciting to be able to discuss that show that off so that's a that's going to be pretty cool and we're gonna have a heck of a lot of fun going there and talking to people and I just basically recapping the whole year you know the other thing is I've become good friends with a lot of people in the etherion classic ecosystem and so it is really cool shared beer with them and just hang out with them and have some fun with them see what they're up to and what ideas they have and they kind of teach me something and that's always fun too also there in plastic tends not to attract icos so like the early days of Bitcoin aetherium classic kind of feels like that where it's a lot more discussion about philosophy a lot more discussion about vision and where we can go and much less discussion about what's the next big idea where's next big investment who's gonna get rich and so far forth so if all the experiences I've had et Cie definitely feels like 2011 Bitcoin and all over again and that I think bodes very well for the ecosystem and it's damn resilient okay desire which hey have enough funding to take project completion yes we do we were very smart with our Bitcoin that we got we divested it and we're fully funded till 2020 for the Cardinal project why does Carter I don't have slow development cuz good things take time and I would argue the developments actually pretty fast all things considered let's see what else we got going on here BTC dumping you know I rarely comment on the on the markets but you know I really would like to say this you know that the markets when I first joined Bitcoin we were like a dollar and then we had the $30 then we went back down to $1 and then we got the $4 and then we went to 256 bucks and then we went to 80 and then we went to 1,200 then we went down to 250 then we want the $20,000 and you know if you look at any investment and over a reasonable period of time three years or five years and you go from basically 200 bucks to $6,000 that's the best investment of your life you're like whoa I've succeeded wow this is amazing but unfortunately people tend to have encrypted these insanely short time horizons and they say oh wow went from twenty to six that must mean things over party's gone crypto is dead The Dream's dead all the passions did all the entities are dead all the fundamentals are gone governments are all gonna turn on us class-action lawsuits we drag everybody to the ground it's like yeah and what happened everybody when we went from $30 Bitcoin to $1 Bitcoin that was pretty painful too so you know the reality is the markets are markets if I could predict them I'd be a traitor instead of an inch in here so I tend to stay out of them but I do know that you have to be wise when you take a look at these things either you have fundamentals or you don't if you don't believe their fundamentals you shouldn't be in crypto if you do believe there are fundamentals then you'll realize that this is an assets it's insanely difficult the price it's subject to market manipulation it's traded on thin markets which in some cases are unregulated and there's a huge influx of capital there's a lot of shady liquidity around and you know that's what happens with these things when they're young so if you're in it for the long haul all those blips tend to normalize out and you tend to see a long trend and things are pretty good if you're in it for the short term you have to be pretty smart to know when the exit are pretty lucky to know when the exit which means you have different set of skills you're not looking at fundamentals you're not looking at you know where is this going and what is it gonna do for society you're looking at market structures and making bets then when you gamble sometimes you get jackpot and sometimes you lose all your money if you bet it all on black and comes up red so you know I guess it just depends on your expectations but I think it is kind of funny to watch the asset go from $250 to now 6,000 something and for people to complain that the sky is falling and we're all doomed you know the last point about that is that we have yet to see real institutional money come in for that to happen you have to have custodial risk addressed you have to have insurance you have to have ratings agencies you have to have regulation that's all coming there's huge investments going into that everything from Swisscom to coinbase to others goldman sachs is getting involved and once that occurs then people are probably going to rebalance their portfolios and you know the Blackrock has trillions of dollars it would be very trivial for them to throw a few billion dollars here and you dollars therefore some portfolio of Kryptos that other people can store on their behalf you know that's just a standard thing that Wall Street people do there's too much money in the world thanks to 2008 it's all floating around they're looking for a home and you can only buy so much gold and so much land so when you create new asset classes that give somewhere for that money to go so when that occurs my belief is that it's gonna have a huge positive effect on the marketplace whatever that occurs but it's probably not 20 years from now it's probably a few years from now or a few months from now who knows it's hard to say it depends on a lot of factors but at I which came me I'm in it for the long haul and I'll be in this space a long long time so I'm overall very long and I think people who panic about the markets have never traded before I've never invested before and don't fully appreciate or understand that you have to be a fundamental investor as opposed to a technical guy or else you're probably going to lose your shirt because that's a mostly rigged game okay let's see what else we got here [Music] do you think the public blockchain space needs to converge to a handful of reliable reverse cryptocurrencies before one of them will ever have a chance replacing a fiat currency you know I don't think fiat currencies are going to be replaced what I what I think is going to happen is that fiat currencies are going to become less relevant you know cellphones didn't kill the phone companies they just change the way phone companies did business we lost the payphone and a lot of landlines are going away but you know there's still a business model there and similarly the innovation won't kill the central bank what will happen though is we're gonna see competition for the first time ever where basically you're gonna have private money be put on the same footing as public money okay and so what I mean by that is that you're gonna have a universal wallet five ten years in the future maybe 20 and that wallets gonna have your real estate in it your airline miles and your silver in it your gold in and it's gonna have all kinds of things in it and when you go to Starbucks to buy your coffee it's going to go ahead and let you pay in any one of those tokens so you can have Bitcoin or ADA whatever it might be you click a button and boom the merchant has been paid and the merchants gonna be paid whatever they want to be paid if they you're gonna settle in dollars you're gonna sell in dollars if they're so euros are gonna sell in Euros it's a merchants decision of what they want to do and that entire process is going to be open that entire process is going to have decentralisation involve in it because they're gonna be decentralized market makers that make that happen and so you start thinking of wealth in terms of universal wallet and in terms of a portfolio of wealth okay so you no longer say I'm worth ten million dollars you instead take that ten million dollars of value and then you're gonna put it into some diversified portfolio and that becomes your wealth you might even have a different way of measuring it that's a bit more immune to efficient especially if you live in a country that tends to suffer from pretty bad inflation so that's where I think this is ultimately going to go is in that direction so I don't think the goal then for cryptocurrencies is to displace a fiat currency it's rather to encapsulate a particular philosophy that some group of people tend to agree with and believe in I used to be part of the Ron Paul movement years ago and a lot of the people who are Paul group love gold they're a big gold bugs they collect it you know they they'd have gold coins in fact one of the favorite things they do is when you meet up with them and talk with them as they pull out some gold coin that they carry with them they said this is the only real money there is that was their belief and so to say to them hey if you believe that then you can live in a hundred percent gold economy store all your wealth in that and you can conduct commerce as if you have dollars they'd be in heaven and I think that's basically where we're going and there's really not a lot governments can do to stop that and basically it means then governments can lose the confidence and faith of their people in terms of their monetary policy and it and instead of that resulting in collapse of the economy the economy will continue to function people of Venezuela can say yeah the Venezuelan government is they're just a bunch of dummies we don't like them so they're gonna transfer all their wealth into different assets and they're able to still function the marketplaces are still able to function because the people haven't had wealth destruction as a result of the hyperinflation I see tremendous value in that and I think that's one of the points of crypto currencies as a alternative is to look at it in terms of the portfolio as a fiat replacement this is a very adversarial thing and it's a it's a it's a dangerous thing because there's a lot of geopolitics involved in money but it's not inconceivable I mean some countries do live with no control over their monetary policy you know Greek one Greece went from their own money to the euro and they could no longer print money to pay for all their retirement benefits and other things and it force astera T on them so we could definitely see something like that come down the pipe as well and maybe some governments would be okay with crypto especially if they've lost the faith in confidence of their people okay let's keep going you know dad protocols so our steep busing he he says in particular curious about deck protocols compared to orb Boris so a dag is a mathematical structure a linked list is a mathematical structure and it's just a way of sorting reality it's sorting things and it's a way of managing the fact that in a decentralized system certain people are going to have different views of that system based upon where they're geographically at their network connections and how people gossip information throughout that network now if your goal is for everybody in the network to kind of have the same notion of time and order and and have the same experience with events there's a huge overhead to that if it's even achievable and so in some cases what you can do is cleverly cheat a bit and say well if we have different types of mathematical structures in our system and we have different types of assumptions about how the network works maybe it's okay for Bob to have kind of a different view of reality than Alice as long as we have some degree of confidence that when we put everything back together Bob and Alice are kind of playing the same game now the advantage there is when you relax these requirements almost always you get some notion of performance improvement so this is why people look at things like phantom inspector and ghost what was going on there well you have this notion and proof of work where you have something called the block interval so you use the difficulty adjustment to be able to determine basically how hard it is to make a block so what you can do is tinker with that so that you can make blocks faster so you can you know lower the the interval from let's say on average every 10 minutes we're gonna find a blog - maybe five minutes or 2.5 like litecoin is time or you can make it even shorter the problem is the shorter you make it the higher the probability that two people are going to discover a block relatively the same time so each peak of the network is going to think alice is right versus Bob is right and so now you have competition and the first one to build a block on top of their chain is the one that wins the other block becomes an orphan and it gets thrown away which means all the work what say Bob lost that all the work Bob done is useless to the network and he's slowing things down a little bit so Satoshi very wisely said a longer block interval ten minutes because it really lowers a chance of orphan blocks it was a nice calculation but you would want to have a shorter interval because you have more blocks and the same unit of time which means you have more throughput for your system so concepts like ghosts and spectre and phantoms say if we change the structure from a linked list to a dag then we can actually include these competing blocks and there's some way of reconciling that double spending has not occurred and now and all of a sudden we've almost like doubled or quadrupled the performance of the system or so forth so this is a good idea and it's an idea that's been studied for a long time and there's been a lot of papers written about it unfortunately what's happened is some people who don't fully understand the theory have latched on to a particular protocol and use this buzzword directed acyclic graph dag as if it is the end-all be-all of scalability and then suddenly everybody gets a hundred thousand transactions per second or five hundred thousand transactions per second or some outrageous number and they're infinitely scalable as if they've just magically discovered something new and it's the biggest innovation ever and the Turing prize is coming next year or something like that and that couldn't be further from the truth whenever you introduce more complexity into your protocol into your data structures or into the way you manage consensus you give something up either you give up some notion of safety or you you gain some notion you get you get some issue where you're not entirely sure if history or you increase the chance people could cheat or you lower your resistance to people cheating you're giving something up nothing is free in life there is no free lunch so DAGs are interesting we actually are thinking about them with respect to Cardno after genesis is fully done and we're almost done with Genesis we're going to go ahead and work on warhorse Hydra in fact we've already made some progress there and probably towards the end of the year we'll publish our first paper and that's where we introduced some of these structures into our model in a way that we feel would make them productive so there's a lot of things to carefully think about so anyway my overall opinion is that where they're useful they're useful but they're not the solution to scalability if anything they're just an additional tool in the tool bag that we have as protocol designers to try to get us to better protocols but anybody who comes in markets saying that this is the way to go and that's gonna solve all your problems if you listen to them you're probably gonna go broke okay Cisco Charles Hoskinson what are your thoughts on Bitcoin maximalist in their perspective on the crypto space you know the interesting thing about Bitcoin maximalism is some people were Bitcoin maximalist like you know Erik Voorhees kind of wasn't a Bitcoin maximalist they kind of grew up and you know you know you run shape-shift so that's like as opposites of fixed-point maximalism as you can get and a lot of that was a reconciliation of the reality that all coins are not a threat to Bitcoin you know they might take a little bit of the market cap but all coins actually tend to bring in people so it's not a sum 0 game where we only have 1 pi and you have an altcoin you chop up the PI differently and the all coin gets summoned Bitcoin gets less when you create something like let's say let's go innovate the ad model or let's go intervene social media or let's do distribute a computation you're bringing in people who've weren't in the Bitcoin space into the cryptocurrency space and you're capturing them with an altcoin well now that they're in an altcoin they tend to like crypto and if they have a good experience with it they're probably gonna buy Bitcoin - so you're actually bringing net value in when you have these things so a lot of the really mature Maxon was they kind of grew up and they said you know we're all in this game together we're all kind of doing the same thing and innovations here can substantially benefit us here bringing in new people here can substantially benefit us there and they got reasonable unfortunately there are some people in the space that still think that bitcoin is the only legitimate way of doing things and and they're very irrational they see proof of stake is the only consensus algorithm a pre mine is a scam and ICO is a scam in all cases regardless of what's done anybody who participates in these things should go to jail and the only source of truth is Bitcoin and what if you really deconstruct their logic they're saying we're ok with a game were less than 10 actors are in total control of the network we're okay with a game where some people who got insanely lucky to get in early myself included get insanely rich and the only way those people can exercise that value is convincing everyday people to get in today and we're okay with that you know if you buy something at ten cents or at a dollar and it goes up to $20,000 in a five year time horizon you basically won the lottery it's a lottery ticket congratulations you know you got lucky you're not smart you got lucky you may have thought this is the future great but you would have believed it's the future from when to ten bucks you've made a TEDx you say wow that's great if you held on to it that entire time maybe you were in jail or something or maybe it was locked away and you couldn't touch it but congratulations if we're holding you got very very lucky yeah and unfortunately these people these Bitcoin maximalist seem to think that that's that's not a reality that doesn't exist and that they have legitimacy but everybody else doesn't have legitimacy and they get very toxic and they hold long podcasts where they kind of ramble about this for a while and sometimes I even go on those podcasts and have lovely conversations with them not to name names so I think they're less relevant today than they were five years ago and certainly less powerful today than they were five years ago the success of aetherium kind of was the end of Bitcoin maximalism in my approximation because it proved you could have legitimate options that weren't clones a Bitcoin that had totally new innovations and brought completely new ideas to the space and so I think it's a movement that will persist but you know there's people around who think that you can't get blood transfusions and there's people around that wear a magic underwear there's plenty of strange beliefs in the world that's okay you know you still love him he's still tolerate him still invite him to dinner you know he's still talk to him and you still have fun with them you just accept that maybe some ideas are pretty kooky there's a particular person who's a big community leader in the Japanese Bitcoin community he runs the Japanese Bitcoin meetup group in Tokyo and he believes the earth is flat it's a flat earther you know so yeah I like the guy he's fun to hang out with we go drinking at the the pink monkey or whatever it's called their pink elephant that the name of it you know a cool guy but you know obviously I wouldn't take physics advice from them so you know that is what it is anyway so maximalism is here to stay but it's going to become less and less relevant year by year and it's no longer a barrier for innovation or progress in the space ok let's see what we got here hello South Korea yes a good question from red snapper who is my successor one of the clever things that we did with card on oh yeah is that we built a very federated ecosystem you know we have Ramiro we have the foundation we have AI ohk and even within ihk there's a lot of Federation in the organization I don't own the whole company I have a co-founder and we have equal power we have a chief scientists we have a director of engineering Duncan Koontz and a colossus and others and a lot of the major decisions are made in a discussion rather than a monarchy there are certain things where I have to step in and say this is what we need to do I'm firm and confident and I fight like hell to get it through but more often than not decisions are made by a more decentralized process so while I may be is somewhat of a figurehead in certain respect and you know there's some people really like me if I was to disappear Cardinal would continue to be developed and will get that contract done and we're very confident that what we're delivering to market is going to be great you know just look at the authors of war Bors we keep getting more of them and there are very independent people who have had long academic careers long before they've met me and they'll have long academic career as long after they're done working for me so in a way Federation is the successor but my hope is the ultimate successor would be the community itself we really have to start getting the card Auto improvement proposal process ratified we're working hard on it thinking about what we need to do and as we enter 2019 that's going to become a huge priority we have to get the wallet ecosystem more diversified and prometheus is a good step in that direction but I'd love to see a JavaScript wallet I'd love to see an elixir wallet in full node and you know as that happens you'll see a natural descent zatia one of the great advantages of working with the etherium classic community is that they proved how to do that yeah you know in you know they've done it at a pretty small scale and yet it's almost as if it's Bitcoin so there's a lot of lessons to learn there and we're learning them and we're gonna try to apply them so the long term goal is definitely to decentralize and to certainly make me less relevant I think if I kept traveling at this rate I'll just keel over dead anyway so the ecosystems gonna have to find a replacement for me but that's okay and everybody has to know when to leave that was the greatest lesson I think Satoshi gave us it was that you get the party started you invite everybody get them talking with each other and then you just kind of disappear and my hope is that my tenure will be the same that we can get all the major ideas out there we can get all the major research done we can really invite in some great ecosystems you know we have a great relationship with the haskell community we have a great relationship in the academic circles and we've gotten some of the brightest people in the world to really take Cardinals seriously and consider Cardno to be a pretty cool project and throughout 2019 we're gonna really start engaging them and getting them to make open source contributions to the work we do and then what will naturally materialize are strong differences of opinion and then what we can do is to foster those differences opinion to grow allow them to persist and find ways to compromise and work with and build up a really sustainable governance system and at that point Cardno is is basically what bitcoin wanted to be and we know we got it right as long as we don't have a cardinal classic or a cardinal cache or something like that and I hope that never comes and if it does come at least there's a pretty good reason for and so so yeah in a sense the company's all right we have a lot of redundancies put in the ecosystem is already federated and a lot of the design decisions are being made and a group as opposed to an individual so we are pretty resilient and resistant to losing any one particular person that's a good lesson I learned from my time in the space it's burn rated the team developers working on car Donna but a million a month let's see if we have anything else good here yeah I love these types of questions how is Cardona going to manage the distribution of Aida throughout the community to ensure Aida is an owned by a group of wealthy individuals and to allow Aida to be used as the proper currency so first off how can I control that you know there's this cognitive dissonance that some people have and this is a closely related question I think to the burning of ADA question as if there's this large chunk of ADA that's sitting in a vault somewhere that nobody controls you know it's just unallocated and people hold these surveys and they say well when can we burn that or let's fairly distribute that so we're all a Galit Aryan or something like that guys 100% of ADA in circulation is connected to legal owners human beings with pulses okay some of it the III which cake controls some of it the Cardinal foundation you know and some of it emerge Oz and the rest of it is completely owned by the community of which I have no idea who owns it it's all over the damn place we know it's an astral distribution look like I was pretty egalitarian reasonable Gini coefficient I think the average purchase size of five six thousand dollars there was some large-scale purchasers but for the most part you know ADA's ADA it's distributed people are all around buying it and you know what happens is the large whales they sell because they've made large amounts of profit if they got in early and it went way up they divest because that's what you do when you're rich and smart and when you divest you sell it off in chunks you don't sell it all off at once and we still often chunks it goes from one large owner to smaller owners so you have a natural divestment you have a natural diversity that forms with these assets look at Microsoft yeah you know at one time Bill Gates on 64 percent of the company now has less than 5% of the company and it's a very distributed company owned by millions of people all throughout the world similarly when you look at the distribution if a cryptocurrency over time it tends to gradually winnow out and become more distributed but it's not my job to wake up and say how do we have equality you can't achieve equality there are rich people they exist the key is to say despite the fact that rich people exist can everybody use the system you know you have a bad system when a small group of people can inflict their will on the system and force the system to operate in a very bad way and that's what we have in the existing financial system in the United States and throughout most of the world a small group of people have a huge amount of control over how banks work how regulation works how your credit cards work how lending works how Wall Street works and they rigged the system so that no matter how the macro economics are whether we're in a boom cycle or a bust cycle they make money and the rest of us don't do so well we don't get raises you know I think the middle class hasn't really gotten a substantive raise in 30 years you know it's it's harder and harder to buy health care things get more and more expensive year by year because of inflation and so the rich are getting richer and the foresting at where they're at or they're getting poor and that's a bad system okay so the key is you shouldn't be asking what is the distribution of money you should be asking does this system permit a small group of people to co-opt it and convert it into something that they control exclusively and if you look at Bitcoin that's the case less than ten actors are in control of the entire network in terms of its hash power so the entire security guarantee the exhaustion is consensus is controlled by small group of people that's a bad outcome you know I we talked to both the Bitcoin cash core developers and the Bitcoin core developers because we've been building side chains the Bitcoin core developers ignore our people the intensest the architect of our side chain solution is mostly ignored by the coin core we have no ability to influence or participate or to communicate with them we have to be really sneaky like when we fund a dandelion we had to hide the fact that I ohk was involved so they could sneak dandelion into the backdoor you know but for the most part they're unapproachable you know they give some credit that Bitcoin cash guys at least we could have a conversation with them but that centralized development it's it's a exclusive club I'm not in it we can't be in it we have some of the best scientists and engineers in the world built the the first formal spec for UT EXO wallet Bitcoin could use that it's a great idea we've implemented in Haskell it's formally verified in Cocke but yet it's not even discussed so you know it's less about distribution of funds and it's much more about control and if he built the system the right way you can afford the billionaire you know there are plenty economies in the world that have billionaires in them but despite that they don't have many homeless and people are doing pretty well and anybody who wants a good education can get it anybody wants a good job can get it so you're doing something right if you allow people to innovate and enjoy the fruits of their labors and and the meritocracy of their work but that doesn't come at the expense of everybody else you're doing the job wrong if you allow some small group of pre-assigned people to rig the system so that the people at the top always win as opposed to everybody else so that's my focus as for Burning ADA as for trying to redistribute data I don't have the legal means to do so and that would be theft so cut it out it's tough asking it's not gonna happen you know you can launch Commissar coin or something if you want quality of outcome let's see what else we got staking so good news on staking we're doing some real good work and we're putting things together for that so we we just published a paper for we submitted it to wine wine 2018 and that's not a conference on on wine it's actually called web and Internet economics it's a held at Oxford December 15th to 17th I hope the paper gets in but basically the papers are paper on incentives it's some groundbreaking research where we thought really carefully about proof and stake incentives and stake pools and you know what are the economics of these things and you know you know what what is the game theory behind it and that paper I believe is on our website already if you go to our paper library I can also tweet a link to it for people who are interested it looks like we're probably going to have about a thousand stake pools that's our current best estimate - how many stake pools we'd like the system to have but if you're building caps you never put hard caps in so that's a kind of a relative Maxima because basically you minim you start making less money if you have more than a thousand and the incentives paper actually provides mathematical formulas that show how we can kind of use some dampening effects to try to get the system to converge to that kind of a size so much larger than you'd see with normal state pool style systems and it's very egalitarian representative and we're going to make staking pretty easy so that's Shelley will be releasing information very quickly on that as it comes sometime this month we're gonna have all the 21 work units of Shelley completely SPECT up and all the time estimates done and so forth and we're right now shaking up our squads and what's 1.4 is out the door it's gonna become our primary focus and we're gonna try to get through all of those work units as quickly as we can the Shelley test nets will also come out and you get a lot of people who register for the stake pools an opportunity to come and play around and see how staking works and so forth and we'll work really closely with the community to try to build up a lot of knowledge and competency and then come Shelley there'll be some sort of mechanism were epic by epic the network gradually turns over and eventually 100% of the network will be controlled by a completely decentralized and huge group of people so good news is also as technology improves in the protocol improves will probably go beyond those thousand staples to tens of thousands and will also be able to try to tether stake pools with layer two services and with network relay so in addition to just doing consensus they will also launch relay nodes and they'll also do things like host our version of lightning and Oracle services and so forth so you'll end up getting thousands and thousands and thousands of service providers providing overlay protocols to dramatically accelerate user experience and provide data feeds and other things like that that you require for smart contracts in addition to potentially getting more distributed computation with the system as opposed to replicated computation so took us quite a bit of time to get here but we did things right you know this paper we published in wine and we sent to wine is really the first of its kind no one's really written a paper in academia about this topic before the delegation scheme that we've come up with is really sophisticated and there's a lot of careful thought like how do you do cold staking and how do we deal with exchanges in the mix because when you send your ADA to an exchange technically they would have control over that and be able to use cigarettes so we had to create a special address for them to use that would prevent them from participating in consensus there's just a lot of that little stuff there that when you try to pull these things into a practical system and you go from the science to the practicality do take quite a bit of time to work your way through so we spent that time they took a lot longer than I thought it would but I'm glad we did because we learned a huge amount along the way and we know these problems down at a level that we can share these problems with the rest of the community the academic world the game theorists of the world and other such people and so as a consequence we're in a really really good position as an organization to be able to introduce these problems into the 2019 and get hundreds if not thousands of people working on them and we'll move from classical consensus style problems to more a merger of mechanism design and consents and we'll be talking about the crypto economics and we'll be doing it as a very large community with business professionals with lawyers with economists and computer sciences as opposed to doing it as computer scientists where we only kind of see a narrow part of of the world so my personal best estimate but we need to get more data be q1 of 2019 is when we get all that work done but my hope is to find ways we can shape some things off Jennison some cargo so we can get this out the door faster closely related but somewhat orthogonal is the idea of smart contracts and that's a situation where that's actually working faster than the decentralisation we already have the yellow test net out and there's probably maybe only 2-3 months worth of tuning and parameterization that I'd like to do and cleaning we'd like to do before we'd feel comfortable with a 1.0 so our contracts stack assuming semantics based compilation and you know k's rewrite and kata yeah yellow vm is done and so forth that's runtime verifications wheelhouse and they have a 19% team working on that so then it's just a question of how do we want to link these systems together and we're side chains at so we actually have like five side chains papers and we're slowly rolling those papers out we're submitting them to lots of conferences so all throughout this year you'll see more and more side chains papers coming out some papers are papers building cryptographic primitives like the NEPA Pao and other papers are kind of stitching that primitive together into a practical system and other papers are kind of discussing the theory behind it and so forth so look for those as well and as soon as we can find a responsible way to pull that into the stack either pre Shelley Shelley or post Shelley will find a kind of a route that's when we'll be able to link up a CL and actually run some our contracts in the system the other thing that we're really having a lot of discussions on is how robust do we want the scripting language of SL to be we have this notion of taking the UT EXO model and extending the UT EXO model so we can support Plutus Styles more contracts the most conservative way of introducing that would be to introduce an additional control layer with the polluted Styles of our contracts built in the most aggressive way of introducing that would be simply to extend the SL and introduce this so we're really thinking deeply about the security consequences the performance consequences and kind of the utility side of allowing smart contracts in some form in a functional form at the base layer with Marlo and Plutus and the extended UT Excel model or if it really ought to be outsourced to a different ledger that's meant specifically for safe contracts so that's some tension and we're having a lot of discussions about it and we're trying to understand this and this is really the first time though that programming language experts have looked at the smart contract model it's mostly been unbias and now we have people who have spent their lives designing programming languages and thinking about the consequences of these languages applying really heavyweight theory to this issue like manuel chavarri michael peyton jones we are working with John Hughes on the testing side Phil Wadler and and others are on that team and they're just great people and we're real excited to be working with them and we think that they're going to bring a heck of a lot of innovation to the space which is very different than the innovation that was brought with the etherion model yella is more logical refinement of everything that aetherium was about and just trying to take an old thing and make it better and also make it correct whereas Plutus is a completely new thing and there's a lot of potential execution risks there so how we can stage all these things and pull them together we're having huge discussions about that but the good news is we got a big team a lot of the remedial work like the core refactoring and network improvements and one point source where stuff is coming to a close and then that team will can be repurposed towards getting these things out the door as quickly as we can yeah as with all software I wish we had another six months as with all software I wish we were you know further along but that's just the nature of the game the good news is we're not going anywhere and we're pretty damned persistent so we're gonna keep working on it we're gonna keep pushing hard and we're gonna just keep going till it gets done and we also know exactly what we want to do and we have a very clear vision and we have some extremely talented people who are applying very heavy weight theory and very heavy weight techniques towards what we want to do and that's a first for the cryptocurrency space and we're trying to do things the right way but do in a timely way and that's a huge balancing act for us well that's actually a really good question hello Charles would it be possible for I which K to organize workshops tutorials to teach the community to read write formal specifications to increase the safety of the ecosystem yeah so one of the visions grigory ro Xu has with K is to teach people enough about K in the specs of K so that you can actually start thinking about smart contracts through the K lens so he's already demonstrated this once before where people came up to him they said hey we have these ERC 20 tokens can you let us know if we implemented it correctly or not he said oh sure so they actually wrote a formal specification for ERC 20 and then they offer a service at RV where you can go with your ERC 20 and pay them some money and they can look at it and say this is the good the bad and the ugly so it would be really really cool to talk about libraries of contracts or you don't necessarily look at code but you're ready to look at the specifications and your options and then teach people ways of verifying that they've actually correctly implemented from specification smart contracts in a way are perfect for this because they have well-defined business logic they generally are very small so under a thousand lines of code and they tend to exist in well understood kind of toy environments bespoke built for them so when you have those things together you have a very good target for verification and to know what's been done is correct so we've had a lot of discussions with RV about well when and how would it make sense to try to open up some of the magic that they have under the hood and start formalizing lots of concepts and things like that some cases teaching people how to write the semantics of their programming language so that we can support that programming language was SPC or for people to write formal specs of things like non fungible tokens or a security token specification or an asset or something like that so that's one lens then another lens is the bespoke verification for one-offs where you know let's say you have a dowel contract and you want to know that that is correct so it's an open question of what does the tooling need to look like and what types of tests can you use whether it be property based testing or fuzzing or you know these types of things and how do you pull these things together to make that work well and that's a conversation we're having with Kubik that's a conversation we're having internally and within the Plutus team as well and I hope that as the Plutus model evolves in tandem there's going to be a huge discussion about the developer experience and the notion of verification so we've already started some preliminary discussions like we talked to Ranjit Nicky bazoo about liquid haskell and this idea of introducing refinement types into our own development process and it'll be so cool to have like liquid Plutus or something like that where we can introduce that notion into our stack but it is a it is a pretty complicated topic the problem with formal methods is that it's something that as a computer scientists you probably don't encounter you know if you're training it's it's like the it's like the nuclear medicine or you know the or the you know neurosurgery of Medicine where you know most doctors aren't that type of doctor they know of it and they know how to refer you to that person but they don't know much about it or they don't they don't really think about it too much they just know what they do and it's the same situation formal methods is very bespoke and there's some people like Benjamin pierce and Xavier Leroy and others who have done exceptional things and really cool things and there's some interdisciplinary work like for example of Avadh Suki's work on Homo topi type theory which is just elegant as heck and really cool and amazing but at the end of the day the tools are still quite primitive they're not user friendly they're not built for engineer is rather built for academics and the pedagogy behind these things is exceedingly difficult most of the text books written are written assuming you have graduate level computer science training and graduate level mathematical understanding they're written in very complicated prose the examples usually don't have you know the the the example problems don't usually have solutions you know and it's not really done in a way that's developer friendly so we have had some conversations with our director of education Lars Bridges about what would it take for us to kind of get into a more practical sense and not necessarily have tools as heavy as or Isabelle but our way tools that could provide verification of smart contracts so you know we sent our education guys over to the Oregon programming summer school back in 2017 and they got to talk to Edwin Brady and a lot of other guys hadn't created idris which is probably the most accessible of all these dependently type language systems and we did learn a lot and we actually have a formal methods group within i/o HK and some of the people there are actually new to formal methods and we're we purposely picked good people who are great engineers but it didn't know about these things so that we could kind of get experience in teaching them to people and so as we come along that's definitely going to be a priority of our company and this is also important to point out should be blockchain agnostic you know it's really bad world if everything you do vendor locks you into a particular blockchain solution like aetherium aureus or card on oh really you should start with who are my customers what is the business domain that they exist within what do they actually want to accomplish and be able to write that out in some sort of business process language you know and understand what you're actually doing the substance of the relationship and that in a way becomes your specification and you should be able to make that machine understandable then when you implement it you should be able to a/b test and prove by simulation or prove that these things are in some way connected to each other so that you know that the semantic gap between what you thought you wanted to do and what you actually did was close that should not be platform dependent we should not say well we this tooling we've constructed it's only going to work on card ah no because what happens if you as an engineer have a business requirement to use a different platform or what if you just decide that you like another platform war for example if our privacy side is not good enough for you want to go to Manero or something else and they now support smart contracts well you couldn't migrate over and that would be a really bad world living so it's not just can we teach people this the answer is yes it's a question of well what does this mean how do you make this platform independent and also how do we make the tools lighter weight and more developer and user friendly over our of time the good news is that this is not a game we're in a loan there's a lot of people now thinking about this like the Zen protocol guys the are chained guys there's dozens of them running around even some people in the etherium space or it's starting to take this real seriously so we're seeing a lot of desire to move in that direction and probably will end up happening as will have intercompany inter blockchain standards that emerging committees that emerge and basically will just develop some best practices together and then once we have those then we can create curriculums on those put them up on YouTube put them up on Coursera put them up on you to me put them up on EDX and then a lot of people can self assess and self trained and self learn and so forth there might even be ways to actually incentivize people to verify things are correct and that would be a really cool token for people to come up with yeah this is fun people talk about mouth Oni mask apply Charles Hoskinson owns 40% of 80 shares you notice they never present you any proof we did a public disclosure or how much I owe HK has I don't currently have any of the company does I think it's around 8% and he's hiding between 15 countries I'm hiding I'm right now my home in Colorado but I guess I'm hiding right you know I go to Japan I go to Colorado but I'm hiding and where did thirty billion dollars go in four weeks well that's also a factually wrong statement but who cares trolls never make good statements right brings up a broader point ADA went from two cents to a dollar 20 down to 11 cents it happens it's painful it's exceedingly painful especially if you're the guy at the top because you have to ride the roller coaster down some people have done that some people bought Bitcoin at 1200 and had to watch you go all the way down to 50 it was really hard some people thought a 30 watch to go down to one and that's what I was saying a lot earlier on about the nature of fundamental investments versus technical investments and this idea that everybody is just going to get rich for doing no work whatsoever people if they don't understand what they're doing can lose money in any venture and anything and it is really unfortunate when some people have extremely unrealistic expectations and then when it doesn't work out for them they don't want to blame themselves they don't want to blame their poor decisions they just blame whoever happens to be at the top and they say things that are lies outright lies they make personal attacks and do whatever they want to do and you know that's just the nature of how the space works it's the nature of all these things some days you're a hero some days you're a demon just depends on how the markets are performing but I would hope though that people recognize that an utter lack of civility and no way will make your money come back the only thing that will happen is if we can get better macroeconomic trends the markets are depressed relative their all-time high we as a community are pretty backed up and bashed up and there was just too much speculation and hype I was saying this before the markets went up I was saying this said $500 Bitcoin I went on Bloomberg and said it and I warned people that probably gonna have a collapse then we went up to $5,000 I said the exact same thing I believe it was on CNBC Australia I said the exact same thing to coin desk the coin Telegraph to anybody would listen that guys we're in a speculative bubble the bubbles probably going to burst well some people didn't listen they got hurt but it's my fault apparently you know and II that that is what it is and you know that's just how these things work but one thing I'd ask everybody to do is use some common sense look for facts when people make statements or assertions what evidence do they have and you'll find out that a lot of the people who say these things are actually they have no facts and that's because there's actually an industry now to lie fake news is real trolling is real and it's not some people having fun at a keyboard at our expense it is an industry meant to damage competitors you can pay money on the dark web or in some cases legitimate companies in Eastern Europe and other places to have armies of people go and lie about your competition you do this the short sale you do this to benefit your own position you do this to distract people it happens to Tesla it happens to Apple that happens to political campaigns really was a big deal in 2016 and that's just the world we live in because at the end of the day what is the cost of doing this type of attack a lot of it can be automated a lot of it is just mainstream propaganda and you only need a small team of people and using automation you can broadcast it to thousands of different channels and it can really impact the credibility of projects and really distract people so you know we have to be good critical thinkers because at the end of the day no one's gonna be a critical thinker for us you have to look at the history the track record the progress that's been made the statements been made in historical context you have to look at the commitment to transparency you have to look at who are the people behind it and one of those people done throughout their lives and when you string those things together then very quickly you can start separating fact from fiction the problem is that takes time that takes effort that's a commitment and a lot of people don't have time they don't have effort it's too much of a commitment so they just have a mob mentality and follow whatever it is there or just believe whatever the hell they read and that's why we've gotten into some bad positions in life so for my own part it's become so toxic that I decided for example to leave Twitter I'm just using it as a broadcast platform I actually write up the tweet I post it I don't read comments anymore I really enjoyed Twitter when I was on Twitter especially when I was smaller because I had a lot of Twitter friends we would DM we'd say great things over Twitter sometimes I'd send something to Marc Andreessen roots and something back sometimes I said something to Charley Lee it was really enjoyable but when a Twitter mob materializes around some statement maybe I could have been nicer in it or more humble in something but okay a Twitter mob materializes around articles are written about it it's no longer valuable to our company and it's become a distraction and it's become a liability so what we have to do is just pivot use it as a broadcast medium and and completely ignore the feedback coming back that's the consequence of the reality we live in going back to one of my opening statements in this AMA there was the idea of deep platforming and that is another problem with this fake news is it's a soft DES platforming if you're really good at playing the troll or the propaganda game and the fake news game what you can do is take somebody you don't like and then wrap them in an aura of legitimacy making it seem as if lots of people are outraged over what this particular person is saying a great example of that would be how Jordan Peterson has been treated if normal everyday people listen to Jordan Peterson there's kind of two camps one group of people says this guy rambles I can't really understand what he's saying but it's really academic and it doesn't seem to be very harmful so whatever go to the dragon and slay or lobsters or whatever and another group of people they really connect with him and they say yeah you know Jordan Peterson kind of makes some sense okay I'm gonna buy his book his best seller on Amazon but there's some very radical extremely small fringe group of people who have mastered social media and they have managed to convince certain members of the media Serah members of society county councils in certain places that this guy is a bigot a sexist a homophobe hates transsexuals he's a horrible human being a monster and and he any if you put him in power you know he'd strip women's rights away and regress us back to 1900 they're just convinced of this and then you ask basic questions such as which statements are you worried about and they never really give you that they just show up at the rallies with megaphones beating drums and air horns and trying to shout them out or deep Platform him and so forth so these attacks are also used as a soft way of de platforming messages that are inconvenient to particular agendas whether they be economic agendas or they be political agendas or they be social agendas or so forth and they massively reduce the signal to the noise ratio and they basically make people turn off so I think the cryptocurrency space is not immune to this we see it all over people are fanboys certainly the debate between ourselves and the vitalik is a great example of that reddit is definitely not the place to have an academic debate as I mentioned before we were at the Shanghai winter school we were at financial crypto didn't really have time to talk to us there perfect venue to have an academic debate there's chalk boards on the walls we would have been happy to discuss anything he didn't understand or had questions about or concerns instead he chose to use reddit and Twitter the least effective meeting the mediums and the ones most prone to manipulation by fanboys is that transparency well if your aim is to actually have a conversation and a productive debate and understand what each other are doing it's not you know so that's a that's what I'll say about these things okay concerns about car tanto you know I do have concerns everyday you know I wake up and ask myself was Haskell the right choice you know did we have the right ambition to execution you know I I wake up and say was proof of steak the right choice you know we there's certainly a lot of innovation that could have been done with proof of work the challenge with Cardno was that we went for gold we went for everything we said we want the best programmers the best programming language we want the best technology the best consensus protocol the best governance the best this the best that the best says we were insanely ambitious and we brought together really the all-star team because we were so grand and our appetite so grand in our ambition that we were really able to attract people who didn't care too much about the cryptocurrency space like for example Phil Wadler and say hey you know who cares about crypto there's this some really interesting stuff you can do here and when we brought these guys in and we we worked with these guys we really got some some magical stuff but the problem is that magical stuff wasn't quite as fast as we would hope and we worked really really really hard at trying to get you know things to move a little faster and that meant that some cases we had to reduce the appetite a bit reduce the principles a bit and be a little bit more pragmatic like for example with Prometheus in the in the roughs library and that's okay you know that's that's the reality of these projects so you know as a CEO you're always haunted by the poor choices you made the mistakes you made you know these types of things and you know and you just have to keep moving forward and you have to pivot and you have to know when you need to be a bit faster and you have to know when your principles are working the good news is the hard stuff is done and we've gotten over the hill and we have some great people and we've made some great progress the bad news is that we're not already completely out with everything and not them market leader yet and we probably could have been had we just been less ambitious but in the long run all we were really would have been is the is that you know the tallest small tree in the forest and we want to be a Sequoia and we planted some really deep roots and we planted some really deep seeds and I'm really thankful that we have a community that for the most part that's willing to wait with us to have that Sequoia grow and become the biggest tree not just in the forest but in the entire world so I'm confident in the direction now and more so than we've ever been I'm haunted by the delays and the bad processes and you know kind of wish we ought to do over on certain design decisions that we made in the past that we're now fixing today you know whenever you have to rip out code you spent a lot of time and money writing and you have to put new code in you always feel bad about it but overall I feel pretty good and I think cardano's and pretty good footing the system of peer review used this is another thing that seems to be manipulated by our competitors or in the space or trivialized but everyday academics understand you have these conferences they're the IAC our conferences and they publish books like this you know so this is for financial crypto in 2017 so here you go it's a nice little book and basically if you look through it this is a assembly of all of the papers that have been submitted to that to that conference and here's an example of one right here okay and you know basically the process is always the same there is a date announced where papers will be called for you submit your paper and it goes to a review committee the review committees made up of domain experts that are associated with the conference depending upon the field it can either be very large or very small especially you know big fields like artificial intelligence there's lots of people other feels like cryptography it's a bit more intimate and your paper goes through several rounds and what happens is people have a spectrum they can strongly accept it for really optional papers they can accept it week except week reject reject strongly reject now for Tier one conferences about 90% of the time even after you go through this whole process your paper is rejected maybe eighty percent depends on the conference in the year and the committee and how aggressive they are for a particular topic but almost always you have to go through a rebuttal phase where you know you they say some things and they say well we might accept it but we need to understand more about this in this and you have to write a really firm rebuttal and if you don't survive that paper doesn't get accepted this is a time-honored process it's existed for decades and it's allowed us to build modern cryptography so all of the security you take for granted with e-commerce you know all the cryptographic primitives that we use in crypto and Bitcoin and in the cryptocurrency space in some way we're connected to this process it's a very efficient process - it's not slow you know in some fields like mathematics I personally was pretty lamented about how slow the journals could be and publications could be and how long the peer review process takes but reality is when you have a pivotal paper almost every three months there's a conference window that you can submit that to you know and and so if you miss one you always have to know just next quarter you'll get it in so does it work in a matter of weeks no but it does give you certainly an opportunity to get your work seen multiple times per year that's unique for the field of computer science it's very fast relative to other fields of science if it gets accepted to a conference it's just as good as if you got accepted to a peer-reviewed journal so that's another difference between the computer science world and let's say mathematics or physics or other other academic disciplines for conferences tend to be lower on the academic food chain than the journals it's the opposite with computer science if you get tenure you've gotten tenure because you've gone to a conference not because you've published in some journal more often than not so anyway we utilize this process is a great checks-and-balances we hire the best scientists we collaborate with the best minds but at the end of the day these are very dense papers and they make some big bold claims and they're really hard to read and you know even if you're really smart and you have great processes mistakes through peer review is a great way of having an independent team of people who have no financial incentive one way or other to take a look at your work and make a judgment call whether this is unique and novel and something that's added to the science of the space and by definition if you're trying to do innovative things they're going to change the world you have to innovate the science to get there because the existing science we have isn't good enough so it's a check and balance system because it's a way of verifying that what the scientists we have think is true is probably true it's not the only one you still need to write specifications from it because there's lots of hand waving and papers where they say ideal functionality and assume you can instantaneously transmit a blockchain and all of these types of things and basically uh you know that that's that's not real you know you have to actually be engineers and build these things in the process of building it there's a feedback loop that happens in the engineers are hard-asses with the scientists because it's not optional even if you can hand away and say you know what I mean maybe that works in an academic conference but to an engineer a computer can't understand it unless it's specified and it's encapsulated in code so in a way this is a beautiful pipeline where you get thoroughly creative really smart really great people together you have them write innovative papers that solve real problems you go to conferences which are quite frequent you talk to some of the best and brightest people in the world when you couldn't even hire if you wanted to because they don't want jobs they already have great faculty positions you get them to extend themselves into your product for free you know charge you for this and then they give you great feedback which then put you in a really good position to start a conversation with our engineers about that science and then they write a specification and that specification cannot have ambiguity so in the process of writing specification anything that was cheated anything that wasn't certain about the design of the protocol gets teased out and then revisions have to be made and we have to think carefully and make sure everything's right that one two three pipeline is really nice it's independent of a particular person there's no cult of personality involved in it there's checks and balances it's double-blind especially on the peer review side and on the protocol site you have a computer involved in it and it has to run and you can benchmark and test it and you have some expectations of what it should do and now you're testing it and if there's a delta between those two there's something wrong there that would indicate that perhaps the protocol is not right that's the process we follow it's not like we invented this process it's existed for a long time it's produced a lot of good things and big companies use it with Microsoft and Google when they're doing things that are based on science the advantage we have is because the peer review cycle is so short with the computer science world it doesn't interfere with shipping of products you know Casper has been researched longer than Ora bores and despite that we actually are ahead of them we have more visitin resistance we're getting very close to having a production system based on it and we solved all the high-level problems like delegation and state pools and incentives and when we flip the switch the systems running we're probably going to beat etherium to the market for proof of stake they had a whole year on us and they're not following a peer-review process why it accelerates you is that will you spend a bit more on the front end when you get to the engineering side you have a pure product that gets to the engineers and as a consequence they can think faster they understand more about it and there's less hand waving there so you can get to the real protocol much faster second what the science and the engineering look like is much closer when you design things in a very heuristic way the paper looks very different when you end up implementing some cases they don't match at all because you have to make compromises and the engineer just makes decision so you might have some wonky way of making random numbers here you might do something completely different there because the reality is the wonky way just can't work maybe there's quadratic complexity or some weird thing like that so that's our process we've been very open about our process anybody's free to participate like we're going to crypto and Santa Barbara here in a little bit guys want to go visit and see our scientists talking to people at crypto that's great we're going to see CSU go into Euro these are some of those conferences we go to we go to financial crypto that's usually in the Caribbean it's a nice conference fun conference to go to you know and we see a lot of people there and a lot of good friends there yeah the other thing that I'd like to point out is we have competitors in the academic world there's Algar and there's thunder Ella there's avalanche there's all these great competitors who are by great people who are incredibly smart and they have great engineers behind them and they have universities behind them and they have ideas too you know what our ideas aren't so good that if they're automatically better than their ideas the reality is that it's a wash some cases they have something better than we have when you go through this process you learn something from this process it's not just about verifying what you've done is correct it's also about asking well is there anything better than what I got and instead of saying well I just didn't know now you're talking to 25 people who are all in that same domain all thinking about the same problem who are probably just as smart if not smarter than you so that humility pays back gives you more back this is really really fun you know and it's something that I think is undervalued you know there's only so much you can learn from putting something on github from putting something on YouTube and having conversations with engineers if you're gonna do science you talk to scientists you're gonna do medicine you talk to doctors you know if you're gonna do engineering you talk to engineers but these are different things and so you have to use the right tools the right processes engage with the right communities be able get yourself where you need to go you know I was on a panel at CT RSA where Adi Shamir Matt green and Sylvia McCauley was on the panel with me it was an amazingly humbling experience I am NOT a computer scientist but I'm on a panel with two Turing Award winners that's the Nobel Prize of computer science and we had a lovely discussion of proof of steak daddy's very skeptical of it Silvio's building his own proof of steak protocol called al grant and I'm there to represent a war Boris and Matt green and actually Bart Pernell was there as well wonderful guys Matz crater Z cash-in we get to talk about these things and say well Adi what are your concerns and in the audience Ron Rivest was there the s and r of RSA are there there is no amount of money in the world that can get all these guys in the same room because they're already insanely rich you think I rich in the 80s so you know they're just going to do their own thing so the only way you can have a conversation with those guys an effective conversation with those guys especially about my things is by engaging them through this format it's a little slower but not too much and you get so much more from it so why would you pass on that why would you say that this has no value Vitalik said it had no value in one of his comments and reddit I asked him why don't you write Kasper up into a format that's acceptable for an academic conference and submit it it's a novel protocol thirty-five billion dollar ecosystem behind it you're obviously a very smart guy so if you're so smart and you can know that we're violating in a possibilty theorem all these things and obviously you should be able to get your paper through the peer review process and the answer was it's not proper I don't believe it's worth anything this is the philosophical difference between ourselves and yo sand theorem and other ventures in the space if you believe what we're doing is right eight as your coin if you think it's going to slow us down too much and not make us competitive there are other ecosystems for you what bothers me though are the politics of personal destruction where it's not just good enough to disagree we have to get deeply personal about things and and say that people are idiots or you know people are bad human beings or something for following a particular process that has to stop yeah so the sidechain validation is pretty interesting the way that or bourse is designed you have epics with slots and it's probably going to be okay to have the slot leader make multiple blocks at the same time especially if you have the notion of a stake pool because that actor is going to have a much more powerful computer so it's not inconceivable to say that that slot is going to maintain the state in lockstep of many chains concurrently with fail-safes built in in case one of the blocks is invalid you can still maintain the persistence of the liveness of other chains so for example let's say we have K EVM as its own ledger Plutus as its own leisure yella as its own ledger and SL those would be four blocks every slot and they would be separate chains and then you have a subscription model where basically people can subscribe to the change that they tend to be interfacing and using with it either as a light subscription or a heavy subscription so light note our full block chain and the slot leader will just simply maintain all of that now the good news is that you've just massively increased your throughput and you've effectively charted an or boris has a lot of mechanisms within to actually do that well so that's part of our side chains research and it's part of our vision for SL and CL where it gets really interesting is when you start introducing this idea of elasticity where you know every slot leader that comes up maybe they maintain a few extra few down and there's some economic factor of whether they maintain the chain or not whether the chain pays rent or you know something like that so this is this is where we're gonna get really exciting in 2019 and 2020 because as the classical theory comes to an end and we've solidified all of that we move into the sharded theory and the multi ledger theory in the chimeric Leggio theory that's going to be really fun because we can start talking about that and create models for that and so forth the other thing is the side chains research is all about representations you have history so the whole block chain and you're saying how do I build proofs that are very small that can tell me lots of facts about that whole block chain once you have that mechanism then you no longer have this notion of a light user versus a full user you start off by default with just this collection of proofs and you know basically everything because anytime someone comes in makes an assertion you can verify whether that assertion is correct or not as if you had the whole coffee of all history and then the storage of history becomes a separate problem with that become an essential eyes file system or you know even if it's stored in a centralized capacity there's some way to recall it there's hundreds of solutions you can throw at that but the side-chain thing is really important so these two things were thinking really deeply about and we're working real hard on and we've been writing a lot of papers and I think I'm gonna have some fun with that and see what else we got here yeah Rena can run with current internet technology basically use some like UDP punch into it so it from the outside of you like UDP with the VPN and then it would be this really wonky internal network obviously you could accelerate it if you had custom hardware for it but the arena is just one of a collection of potential solutions we're looking at about long term scalability there are some great ideas like polder cast pol de Arce AST polder cast which came out 2012 and dozens of other things like that which are partial solutions and rina it looks like a way of doing a complete solution and here's why basically Rena is like a collection of foundational technologies that you just stick a policy into and now you have something that looks like a totally different network so you want pub/sub policy now you have it you know you want a different network configuration like gossip clicking now you have it right and so when you have that kind of flexibility then all you really need to replicate a particular cryptocurrency is a policy as opposed to a completely new network stack and that means you can really really focus on optimizing performance and focus on optimizing correctness and getting very good predictability out of what you have and then all of these policies basically inherit from that it's kind of like saying well you're going to compile the java virtual machine or to the the CLR for.net and basically when you do this you get kind of predictable performance so even though you might be writing an F sharp or C sharp or Java or Scala you don't really have a big performance Delta between these things because there's all this stuff that's been figured out underneath it that's helping you do that and that's what Reno is kind of about it's kind of like this Universal machine for networking and then you plug policies into it and those policies allow you to replicate different networks so yeah I like the mathematical elegance and simplicity of that approach and I like the fact that that means I can focus super hard on getting it exactly perfect and it's going to ubiquitously benefit not just Cardinal but all future project as well as permission Ledger's the problem with rina is that it's a very ambitious project the a lot to do there's a lot of basic research to do and you know even if we were to go completely gung-ho into it it takes years to get it all done so it cannot be the condition upon which Cardno is successful we have to have halfway house solutions and we do have them and we are building them and implementing them for Shelley Gogan and other steps in the network that will definitely provide us exactly what we need to be able to scale to large settings it's more of a question of future proofing and that we get reusability and we get a lot more flexibility furthermore because you have policies being able to guide network configuration when you start talking about things like the needs of a spark contract or a private network or a multi-party computation protocol you can now modify the network protocol in a very trivial way to be completely different to meet the needs of that so for example if you go from the main network to a private life chain network or something like that you have some way of doing that in a fair coherent way so that's why I like Rena and that's why I think that there's a huge amount of Merit promised there and for well over 20 years people have been thinking about it one way or another and a lot of the pioneers of the internet do you agree that something like this would have been nice to have had think how to do over you know as for the notion of specialized hardware that's just a matter of making it run faster and more reliably and so forth but you can interface with Reena using traditional internet protocols adds a little bit more fragility and brittleness to the protocol but there are ways of mitigating that and so forth it brings up a broader discussion of well as the inner the internet we have good the answer is no it's terribly broken it's broken because nobody was in charge it's broken because nobody could be in charge and it grew in a very asymmetrical and strange way and then there's all these gigantic companies content companies that have huge amount of influence over it and all this weird policy exists and so it has resulted in this kind of Franken monster and nobody's quite happy with it and everybody talks about how over the next ten years we're gonna fix it like the Stanford clean slate initiative 5g you know they said the Iowa tea movement is going to force a fix to the Internet ipv6 will somehow force to fix the internet it's software-defined networking will force a fix to the internet and we've never just quite gotten there yet so of course the Rena advocates say the same thing they they really believe in that but you know we all have our own book we talk and we can't take ourselves too seriously okay let's see what we got here what else maybe one or two more questions is ADA working to comply with regulations u.s. government that's a really interesting question because it presupposes that there are regulations for us to comply with the answer is there aren't any regulation of crypto currencies has so far not been at the protocol level but rather the use in facts and circumstances behind the use of the crypto currency so basically the idea is if you have a Bitcoin you can have a Bitcoin that's not a problem but then if you choose to use that Bitcoin in a particular way like sell it through an OTC transaction or in person on little bitcoins or if you use it to buy drugs or if you use it in ICO or something like that you may inadvertently be violating a US law or state law or County law so when you build these things the first regulation point is the issuance side and we're past that so now the regulation point stems around the use and the facts and circumstances of that use now that might change a little bit there's a lot of open questions about it for example how gdpr will apply to block chains and legal scholars are kind of haggling over that and there's also a lot of desire to regulate in some way private crypto currencies and some way give the government a backdoor hide the way that's not a new debate that Apple ran into that debate a lot of people make cryptographic software have always run into that debate back in the 1990s you guys might remember the Clipper Chip debate and boy that was a tough one so so far you went United States America has no regulation that applies to us about things we have to do with cryptocurrency as engineers and it probably won't for the foreseeable future that said it is probably a really good idea to self-regulate in that it's a good idea to create standards that can benefit the community have followed for example there was a paper recently published out of University of Pennsylvania School of Law it's about a hundred pages long and it's called coin operated capitalism now that paper covered icos and they went I think over 50 icos and 2017 and they even to the source code itself and they found that over 70% of the IC OS that occurred in some way defrauded the buyers ie they made claims in the sale that were not represented in the code or conduct of the people behind the code so when you have a situation where you have an institution or 70% of the time the person buying token is in some way mislead and in some cases they don't even care because they can immediately divest the token on an upswing of the market place that is a moral hazard whether the regulator steps in or not it doesn't excuse the fact that that is a broken marketplace and we do need to do something to fix it now we could cry and complain and say oh that's a bad deal and we're bad people or we could create standards where we could talk about custodianship and escrow and divestment and use of funds and community control over use of funds and so forth and we can encode all of that up into best practices and create a standard and then you guys as buyers of tokens could ask questions like are we following this standard or not and then self certification and self regulation can enforce this for example the purchase of Wi-Fi products you know say oh well this is a Wi-Fi router and I said well that's great does it comply with a known Wi-Fi standard like 802 dot 11n or a dot 11 AC or something like that why do you ask that question because you have to connect your phone to it you have connect your laptop to it and as a consequence you have to rely that they're following the standard because your phone manufacturer probably never talked to that router manufacturer so did the government step in and mandate to Netgear and mandate to Asus and these other people you must follow that standard for that Wi-Fi product know the marketplace did and we as consumers have an expectation for these things to work properly so I think we can apply self-regulation like that to icos and to privacy especially the denomination of transaction using some notion of escalations and we can end up getting much better systems that work globally Wi-Fi works globally I traveled to dozens of countries every year I have a phone my phone can connect to the Royal host diner in Osaka Japan that same phone connect to a diner in Ethiopia that same phone can connect to a diner in Toronto Canada and in Denver Colorado okay and I never had a negotiation with these people I never knew these feelings there's a lot of this hardware is made on completely different parts of the earth and it's installed by different people different languages but that global standard works and the international community didn't have to come together to figure that out it just was a markets naturally doing that so I do think that that is the way to go and I think that 90% of the moral hazards and issues and concerns we have in this space probably can be resolved there and that slice of 10% probably doesn't require any new regulation because it's fraud and fraud is fraud if you buy something and you thought it was X and it turned out to be Y and the person deceived you into thinking it was X so that they can get your money they committed a crime in almost every country in the world and you know if you have good functioning judicial systems you usually can get recourse either through a lawsuit or through some form of a criminal enforcement and for the most part criminals do go to jail so I think we can self-regulate for the big stuff and for the rest of the stuff the existing system will work pretty well all right it's a final question you know what has surprised me the most about the Cardinal journey you know you never know how these things are gonna go we were very ambitious in in what we wanted to do but the reality is the ambitions were constrained to concepts that were not known by the public most people don't know what Isabel is if you say they probably think something different than what you thought you said you know if you talk about things like by simulation or things like peer review they just have completely different concepts of that and you know we entered in on a different wavelength than the entire space and that's really difficult to do if you're too far ahead of the space or you're too distant from the space people are not so comfortable and they might not come along with you what has been tremendously humbling going all around the world meeting people in the community people like the ones watching this this AMA has been just how tremendously loyal and excited and passionate people are about some of the concepts we have we tried not to break human nature with them we tried to accept that we're flawed and we can make mistakes and we can get overly arrogant and some cases get too big for our britches and tell people were the CEO of a big company but you know the market has a way of humbling you and people have a way of humbling you and people focus less on us and more on these concepts you know I can't tell you how many people have read the or Boris paper you know Kokoro shoe good friend of mine runs run time verification when he did the Kay EVM paper and published it I think there were more downloads in the first week of that paper from the Illinois website then any of paper he's written in his life probably all of them combined you just blown away by these I've never seen this type of response to a formal methods paper this is a paper that maybe 10 guys read because you know it's just the nature of the field and they have 5,000 downloads for it so that has been tremendously surprising you know the the thing that has been surprising has been the quality of the conversations that I've had with people when we talk about liquid feedback or liquid democracy in some cases we have people who have done pioneering work show up at a meet-up or a place I'm at and say by the way the papers you referenced I wrote Wow and you have a conversation with that guy or that gal and and they say well it's pretty interesting that you guys are trying to use this I never thought that was possible or I did but there is an issue you probably haven't thought about and you say wow that's incredible so it's been a great journey and that's it's been a very surprising journey on the other side of the token I don't think I was fully prepared for the negativity of the space people aren't built to take criticism and no one's constructed in a lab it's like building a human being to take a car crash or something like that criticism can be just as frustrating and harmful as physical abuse and it psychologically comes at you and you know you you always ask yourself like what did I do to piss these people off what did I do to make these people so angry or you know to make these people think things that are just so strange and what you can't do is let it bother you and everybody says that but it is hard at times especially if the criticism comes from people that you considered to be friends or people that you thought you had a good relationship with and for whatever strange reason it comes their way partly you can justify it through economic incentives partly you can justify it with the people changing and situations changing and and so that's that you know some of the criticism is strange like we're in ERC 20 token or we don't have any code or it's a scam or it's just a white paper it's it's like well how much objective reality do you have to throw out these guys before they understand they're lying to you but you know you receive that criticism and I wasn't completely prepared for that because I didn't live in a world where I endured that on a regular basis so it has been pretty surprising and it turns out that you have to build an immune system for it you have to build some controls and protections and checks and balances within the organism so you don't get too exposed to it you know the other thing is that you always lose when you engage the criticism I've never won you know people have just said really horrible things I've engaged and I look like a jackass a great example would be with the meta mask incident you know I sick-ass in Vietnam had a long day and I just learned that they got to list it and you know I we they're very small venture guys there's probably less than five people there you know so you're thinking probably one of those five people runs the Twitter feed why would they hire a dedicated person for such a small project so you reach out to them and I've reached out to hundreds of other people that same way and I can't send them a direct message if they don't follow me I can't send them one so I would have sent them a DM but I couldn't send them unto them so I follow him I say hey send me a DM and they send a message back send us something at support it's an open source project there's no warranty there's no expectation of dedicated 24/7 support I have gotten hundreds of small open source projects send me that very same query I've sent hundreds of messages out they seldom get answered I had a time intensive question so I just said you know guys come on I've been in the space a long time seven years you know me I've done a lot could we at least be realistic here if you want to ask me a question I extend you the courtesy of a private channel with me could I have the same with you that was my intent now everywhere I go I see people say hi I'm Charles Hassan Salameh ba you know and it's even in this very chat some people have done it as if I'm this narcissistic guy and you know it's just I've gone to thousands of places I've talked to thousands of people you can do a survey of them I stay after I've had tons of conversations I go out of my way to be to be a bit humble we fall a very humble development process but now there's this perverse image that people have built up about the whole thing second I eat I'm a human being I eat you guys do too it's a dirty secret I guess and you know what when you eat sometimes you take pictures of your food pretty common in Asia ask any of your friends and you know what when you're traveling all around the world and you've had 16 hours of meetings take a picture of your food you have a hundred thousand followers on Twitter you share it you say hey guys this is what I did today I can't talk about private meetings if I meet with a world leader and it's confidential I can't talk about that I can't talk about HR issues or personnel issues but I can talk about the duck that I had a lot of cases people buying for me because they're inviting me to a meeting or something like that so I share it and then they make a montage of all the food I'm eating as if it means I'm not working and I'm wasting investor money or something like that this is the I think the dehumanization and the and the fundamental unfairness of the social media notion of the space the fake news of the space as I mentioned earlier and that did surprise me because in a way it was like an invitation to people to kind of share with my experiences I'm no different than anybody else I just have this incredible luck to be the CEO of a company that allows me to travel all around the world and go to places like Africa and Japan and South Korea and China and Australia and South America and so forth it's a very humbling thing and I have this great medium where I can share those experiences blow-by-blow what it looks like in the plane what it looks like on the dinner table with the world and there are some people who would rather interpret it as I'm bragging and it's a lifestyle rather than saying look at this cool thing that we all get to experience together that was that was pretty amazing to me and you know it the result of it is you just can't share because it's weaponized against the company in the project and ultimately it just hurts ADA so as a consequence I lose that Avenue which was quite therapeutic so that's the positive and the negative I'd say the most surprising things that I've learned you know humbling to be able to have conversations with some of the most amazing people all around the world and I'm really glad that we had an opportunity to interface a creator of the web browser you know I've had a lot of really interesting people I never thought my life I would meet and that was just amazing and is so humbling a negative side I wasn't prepared for how harsh people can be or how brutal people can be and I wasn't prepared for how people react to honest gestures so you take the good with the bad that's just the way the cookie crumbles that's just the way the life is anyway I'll just keep doing AMAs keep doing update videos looking forward to 1.4 thank you guys so much for attending and this was a lot of fun all see us sometime later Cheers
