okay is that better for everybody Dyke wasn't able to switch my microphone to my Yeti mic or to my Logitech real camera and I hope everybody can hear this a lot better and there's no echo and the cameras better for you guys let me know in the chat all right well anyway uh it's right now midnight here in Colorado but occasionally I do AMAs late at night because apparently there's places in the world other than the United States and in those places sometimes it's daytime when it's nighttime here so I might the bullet and I try to get a little bit of a nap in so that I can talk to you guys too because I love you guys as much as everyone else a few things one I wanted to give an update of where we're at with ledger and where we are at with Shelley and then open it up for questions so in terms of ledger things are moving along quite well what happened was that there needed to be pretty considerable update to the software that was going on the ledger so we worked with a third-party company called vacuum labs and vacuum labs has finished their package of work and now ledger and emerge oor worked real hard at trying to get your ROI and they think that there's a pretty good possibility not 100% but very good like greater than 50% that they should be able to get that out in month of March so in just a few weeks if you guys have ledger devices laser nanos you should be able to use those Ledger's in the OI your ROI has really been a phenomenal success I'm super super happy with the speed at which they're developing features and the acceleration that they're gaining and the product quality still looks pretty good other still some issues here and there mobile clients aren't where they quite need to be but the the code is is quite nice to work with and it's nice to see that a mergo is able to really help a lot of people out and get to accessibility to the next level so ledger probably coming in March very good possibility of that we're a little bit behind them because we're in the middle of a massive update and we have to kind of clear that update first and then we can start building features and functionality like ledger multi-sig but if for me it's really important that at least one of the Cardinal wallets does support ledger because then that means if you have a ledger device then you can use that while it is the interface and it really doesn't matter with the security model because at the end of the day your wallet is an interface to talk to the alleged device but the private keys live on that device so whether you interface through Leroy or you interface through dental is it doesn't change your security reality and I would argue probably it's better to use a web interface like your ROI because it has a faster user experience it just boots really quickly and it's really easy to install your ROI and manage these things so it's you know until we get like clients for Dedalus that's probably the way to go so that's the story there now in terms of Shelley the milestone for Shelley really they're they're kind of three buckets of work that we do and each of those buckets has to be done for Shelley to begin so Byron was launched in September of 2017 late September and now we are reaching the end of life of Byron so the last major update to Byron was 1.4 and the first update to begin the Shelley era for our current code base in Marquette is 1.5 so 1 point 5 is the OPF T update it's been a QA hell for a bit because the CEREC l codes been so difficult to work with but the good news is it's starting to work its way through that at a faster pace so a very strong possibility that 1.5 will ship before the end of march there could be some factors like regressions or other little things that we discovered but those are unlikely the code is feature complete and now it's just a matter of making sure that it passes all of our QA tests when you do a consensus upgrade that's a rather significant event for your system but this particular protocol is much simpler than or borse Genesis so it means that the testing can be done more quickly so 1.5 is on his way look for that and you can kind of watch it work its way through QA if you you clever about heart commits work and we'll let you guys know when and how that's that's going to come out now when we ship it it's not going to provoke a heart for immediately because we need to give partners time to upgrade some exchanges are still on 1.3.1 and have not even updated at one point four and euro is back end is still based on a heavily modified version of 1.2 so we're working with them to try to get them upgraded because in addition to the OB of T update 1.5 also is going to fully deprecated the V 0 AP eyes so if you've implemented change goes away you know you're gonna have to redo your implementation to to get your exchange to work properly with the wallet packing so we're in discussions with all the exchanges that hold cardinal and they send us messages and where we're going our way through that so 1.5 is where the first major step in Shelley and then there's going to be a series of updates that come quickly I mean she and every one of them will be rolling in new features in your functionality second we've been working really hard at finalizing the candidate specifications for Shelley so while code is nice at the end of the day if this is a truly decentralized ecosystem then any person regardless of who they are should have the ability to look at a series of documentation specification which is independent of a particular philosophy and just has its it's written in math or ela or some language they should be able to take that and write their own client we did this with theorem classic and actually a theory and with the back to his client we did not talk to the etherium foundation we didn't ask for permission we didn't have to get right access to their github or something like that we just took the yellow paper the documentation of aetherium and from that documentation we were able to build a Scala client from scratch fifteen thousand lines of code it took a while but we did that and that client was able to talk to the gift notes and the parody nodes and other nodes in the system so if card on was to achieve this same level of quality in terms of specification documentation our specs do need to be complete so the Berlin delegation summit that we had in January was a very good event it was a very rigorous event there were a lot of conversations that took quite a bit of time and working our way through that event we discovered there were a lot of little small details in the specifications that needed to be slightly changed here and there and cleaned but what we've been able to do is mostly resolve that and now we're in the process of taking the implementations that we've done for horse prowess and Genesis and then deriving specifications from those implementations and from the paper innovation sure both sides agree we actually have two independent implementation those protocols one is on the rest side ones on the Haskell side and there's a bit of a drift between those two so there's going to have to be a reconciliation that's that's done and that reconciliation will happen the ensuing weeks so our goal is to have all the candidate specifications for card ah no done for Shelly done before the end of q1 that might slip a little bit but we're almost there it technically you don't need specifications done to ship a product like Shelly but what that effectively means is that there are parts of your protocol or your cryptocurrency and this is quite common most of cryptocurrencies from Bitcoin to etherium have things that are off spec you don't need to have a specification done to ship the product it's just if you do that then that means you're basically seeing the code is the specification for example when runtime verification worked with on the KVM project they found out that the yellow paper was not a complete specification of the design of the theater virtual machine so they actually had to look at the implementation of it and look at how solidity worked and other things to kind of backward engineer exactly how the etherion virtual machine works and create a complete set of formal semantics for it so we'll be in a similar situation in a little bit in the beginning and certain things are off spec there's no high quality and they're written with good coding practices and standards it's just that we don't have three to six months to sit down and academically argue about very fine details what we can do is we can backfill things and because we have two clients that have to converge we'll do that through a specification driven process at a later date so the formal methods team is working pretty quickly and we should have a complete set of candidate specs either by the end of this quarter or by the middle of next quarter and then a convergence of specifications between the two clients and and then there's going to be a period of reconciliation there a few things we're also going to do some Gogan related specification at the same time because it's low hanging fruit so we're gonna create a specification for extended UT Excel and also for multi asset accounting which means that those are the asset issuance so our er C 20 and then there's a few other little things like the sidechain specification which will come as well which is a prerequisite for Kokan but we also want to get it out the door because the side chains model also gives us super efficient like clients so so that's where we're at in terms of second bucket specification and we're moving pretty quickly the third thing is basically the winking eyes state so when we say Shelley we say staking that's the most common notion and that's an accurate notion so staking always begins first on a test net because a lot can go wrong so you want to make sure that people actually know what they're doing and people understand the mechanics and also we have to set a lot of parameters and so we have an idea and if you read our specifications right now they're the github repo and some point we'll just push them PDFs if people don't want to build the latex if you read the specs we have a candidate set of parameterizations everything from the rewards to give to the incentives to try to accumulate how many stick pools but it'll be a hundred or a thousand ten thousand these types of things and so it's really important that we get some feedback and it's a two-way conversation between us in the community so that we can sign a nice set of candidate parameters for the system is that the other day the theory says it's secure whether you pick X or Y or Z X Y or Z is an economic and community preference so you establish that economic and community preference through the through the test net phase so we have the Haskell team working really hard to get to a test net and we have the rest team working really hard to get your test net now the rest team they have a true hacker mentality so they asked me a few weeks ago if I could fly every single one of them out to Hongkong and they could have like a month-long brutal codeathon boot camp where they just go ahead and work like hell and not sleep and try to get everything to work the way they want so I said well if you can find me an office space you can go to then I'll consider it so ergo Hong Kong was gracious enough to actually lend their office space to our Rus team so I said alright and they flew from France and England and other places and all went to Hong Kong so now the entire rest team is sitting in Hong Kong working basically non-stop and their goal is to try to converge to get all the features finished for a four test and as quickly as possible so as we get towards the end of February we'll get more updates for you on exactly when that test that's going to land but to me it's a very high priority to get that test that out in q1 and at that point we are in the Shelly era as well have specs that's one bucket we'll have the first of a series of hard Forks enabled and at some point we flip this switch and sticking has begun in addition to that you need people to stake so we launched the stick pull taskforce there were about 1300 people who signed up and then we went to the old list that was sent out last year in April and there were a few thousand people on that and we got them all into a communication channel and they're asking questions I think we have a few hundred questions so far that have accumulated so basically we're creating a structured process for people to ask questions anybody in can join this group anybody can ask questions within this group they all go to a repo and then somebody's job is to go through filter all of them you know combine duplicate questions and or restate questions in a way that are a little bit easier for us to parse and answer especially given that many people don't speak English as a first language me and some questions do come in in different languages and they need to be translated once that's done then it goes to us pumpkin Bruno myself a girl owes other people we answer those questions and we write all those answers down we give them to the girl and then they say well that's interesting but your answers giving us more questions we repeat the process and the goal is to do it a few times until we have a huge corpus of information now I've got some questions of why are we doing this what was the point of variety of this Q&A process well it's because I've noticed repeatedly on Twitter reddit that people don't really understand how our course works sticking works or even basic mechanics of what we're proposing for example there's this impression that you have to freeze your ADA to - steak and that as long as you're doing that you're eight is locked and you can't go do something with it that's not entirely true and that's something that people believe because of things that Casper has been proposing and we're not cast burden we have nothing to do with their protocol so instead of just answering the same question over and over and over and over what we've decided to do is just say let them all ask us at once we'll get it all into material and once we have that then we can create a FAQ and we can create content around that blog post videos and other things so when you in the community see somebody ask about this instead of trying to answer it you can just point them with only and say this answer is everything and if they say oh I don't want to read that they say well then you don't deserve an answer also we talked to the Clio guys the guys who did the Marcus and Robert the guys who did the first Plutus course training course and we asked them to assist us in parsing the questions and once they've parsed basically taking our answers and creating educational material based on that so we will create educational material the Cardinal foundation will create some educational material and some third-party community people will as well now after we have we've done this whole stateful thing and we have this huge pool of people that are really excited interesting some subset of them will be fairly technically capable and that is the perfect set of people to take and plop right into the Shelli test map then instead of just launching a test net you have launched a test net with people who actually care about a test set and understand what you're trying to accomplish and then we can begin systematic stress testing and go through many different scenarios in our risk register and verify that the theoretical guarantees of the protocol actually match reality so for example if you have 101 people doing something make 50 of them malicious and 51 honest and let's just verify that the protocol still runs it should because that's terrific guarantee and if it doesn't then something's wrong in the implementation we don't think there's something wrong but it's really nice to run these scenarios as a sanity check because then it tells us an objective third party people that we've actually achieved what we've wanted so that's where we're at a huge hackathon and things are moving really quickly on the rest side kind of priming the pool and getting a large group of people to flood into the Shelli test net and these will be sophisticated people so once they leave this process there will be a lot of surrogacy and they can actually start building communities and answering questions and many many many people are very excited about that and then hopefully we could have a very short time period to move over into Shelli on the Haskell side things are still moving in a pretty good direction we have a lot of very refined and elegant ideas that the house colors have been working on and what we're trying to do is figure out how do we get those ideas into reasonable realistic and reasonable timelines so we did a little bit of shuffling at i/o HK to try to speed things up and to make processes run better so at the moment our company's most effective and efficient engineering group is actually has nothing to do with cryptocurrency it has everything to do is blockchain that's our enterprise work group led by Bruno Paleo Bruno has never missed a deadline he's always delivered under budget and ahead of schedule and they actually have about a four to six week release cycle and they've been building an enterprise framework in Scala so the work they're doing there is just top-notch and we're almost in a position where we're just about ready to begin pilots in Ethiopia and other places using that Enterprise framework which we consider to be a great gateway drug to get people into the Cardinal ecosystem because once you get them into a blockchain system they have wallets and identities and you can use that to connect it by our protocols to a cryptocurrency and of course the one will connect it to is Cardinal because that's the one I care about not aetherium so so anyway that group is just a phenomenal work I love the fact that every four weeks they release something and usually pretty good and they're fairly bug free and it's highly motivated team so what we decided to do is move Bruno into a leadership role at i/o which case so we promoted him to be our director of engineering and we moved Duncan into a lead technical architect role where he can do the things that he does best which is worry about the architecture and the design of the system and less about the day-to-day processes of how to manage engineers and also how to think about software methodology in terms of you know how do we release how do we do a-and how do we manage basically getting ourselves into a reasonable release cycle I'm unhappy with how long it takes to go from 1.3 1.4 and so forth some of this has to do with inherited technical debt and some of this has to do was just bad processes that were really not well thought out from prior management in some cases myself so the good news is that Bruno is now on board and he's computational logician he got his PhD in two years good h-index so he's both an academic and a formal methods expert but he's done a really really good programmer as well originally from Brazil but he does live in Australia and he's worked with our company for well over a year and he's done just a great work so we also hired David s-sir and David's job is to be a product manager so what he does is he sits down every day and worries about user experience he worries about bugs fact one of the first things that he did is he talked with guys at the helpdesk and he said send me all the love reports he's hairy sure about that because there's there's a lot of tickets we get and he said I want to see him I want to drink for the firehose so he worries a lot about that David fluffed my ranch here in Colorado and spent a week with us and we we've been giving David Jeremy and I a huge amount of information about Cardinal so he's going to be worried a lot about basically getting the rest test that where it needs to go and working with Bruno to get the Haskell team into a ship ready delivery culture but preserve the rigor and preserve the really cool ideas they have and also make sure that we do proper reconciliation this frees me up to do things like build partnerships and it frees me up also to think about bigger more significant features to the system especially as we begin entering the gogans era and later ears which will include governance features and so forth which are coming faster than you think and we have to begin doing work now if we if you want to ship them in a reasonable period of time so that's where we're at shelly is staking staking is coming soon either it's going to be on the rest side of the Haskell cot site more likely not the first test that will be rust will hit right now priming a large group of people to participate anybody can but we'd like to at least have some a fairly good participants the specs are entering candidate phase there some cases will have multiple specifications like on the network stack we're actually probably have three candidate specifications one from the rest one that's being built on the enterprise side which could be potentially reused in cardano's and then what the network team has been doing on the Haskell side just about fifty sixty percent done give or take maybe a little bit more but they're converging to a funnel design which has some really cool features about it but it's implemented with dependent types and there's a little bit of complexity there so we have to kind of work our way through it and get our spec to where it needs to be okay so I'll shut up now that's that's your update now let's get to your questions Aloha Darcy is that the Darcy from from the hotel in Lahaina okay let's see here some of the questions you guys have yeah that's a good question from ch about Windows input until the rest of all ends cross-platform compatibility is an open question for the first generation I suspect we will deploy the Windows Mac and Windows but it's more of a DevOps question and we have to wait for the software to reach a certain level of maturity before we get to the process of building things my preference would be to have a turnkey docker image that we deploy but it may be that the first generation is a Linux push and that's followed by a Windows and a Mac effort because you have to remember that it's a different user class when you're talking about a stake pool in particular the user client is fine and it's gonna be a command-line interface the first client on the state on the on the test net but when you're talking about a stake pool there's a high probability that people are just going to be deploying to something like Amazon Web Services or Azure and they'll be dealing with a linux server and if that's the case then it matters a little bit less about Windows interoperability there the preferred environment for servers generally is Linux but remember that's for state pools not for Shelly consumer clients were of course going to have Windows Mac Linux and mobile client interoperability there I see this one a lot too well I okay extend card on a contract beyond 2020 I think we don't extend contract clients has more to do more work but there's a scope of work with card on and that scope of work will get done even if it takes additional time to do it but I think we have a good chance of hitting all those milestones because you know the front part was heavy research and we're now exiting heavy research and going to a hard core implementation and we kind of learnt had to learn how to do that the way it needed to be done and we're now converging as a company to being able to do really fast software development so I think 2020 at the end of 2020 is a reasonable deadline for everything that was what we were planning for that first generation we need a Treasury system not just for us but for everyone in the ecosystem who want to do things like I don't want a situation where the Cardinal foundation has to somehow find a way to sustain itself so that it can continue giving grants to Clio or tan gem or other people I want a situation where if you have a cool idea you just go to the Treasury you submit a ballot and you go and make the case of the community directly and then there's a democratic process upon which people approve and reject that and that there's dedicated money for these people if we get to that then we're a very sustainable ecosystem because you don't have gatekeepers the minute that you have somebody who decides at the top that person is your king it's the golden rule he who has the gold makes the rules so we're not going to stop till that Treasury is done at the very least and if there's still more work to do then and we're not funded for that then we'll submit a Treasury ballot but I don't think it'll take that okay yeah actually the shot the h-index the highest h-index in our company I think is 75 and that's from Phil Wadler he's written he has 25,000 citations all right see what else we got here Charles is there any other way to make Dedalus wallet download a little faster than how it is now you know it's interesting I can download the wallet very quickly from Amazon because that's where we host it but for certain groups of people the wallet binaries they download fairly slowly like him several megabyte bits per second and I'm not sure why that is I've talked to my DevOps people and they're starting to look into that but then you might also be referring to how long it takes to download the blockchain when the new network stack comes in the blockchain will download much faster because instead of being shipped from just a relay you'll have multiple relays and a peer-to-peer model and then it'll ship kind of like a torrent in that case but your mileage may vary it depends on your ISP your geography your network configuration and a lot of things can influence the rate at which a blockchain downloads ideally we'd like to get to a world where you do not have to download the entire blockchain to be effective network participant and to enjoy a reasonable level of security and not have to trust a third party now there is a arms race right now in the cryptocurrency space of how do we get the next generation like client and so you're seeing technology like elgran recently proposed the paper called vault it's a very well written paper and the long the short is that you don't have to possess the entire block chain or you TXO to be able to use the system and you'd still be able to verify that what you're looking at is secure as if you had the entire blockchain there's also another proposal out of MIT called you tree XO you TR e e XO and it's a somewhat similar idea where they're pushing some of the work to the client but you don't have to store or use the entire you take so to get your security we're also looking at taking our side chains paper the proof of stake side chains paper and saying look we can take the YouTube so we can take the merkel root of the you teak so so you put in every little leaf one of the entries and then it builds its way up to a merkel root you have that little thing and then maybe every ten blocks or a hundred blocks we put it in the header and then basically what you would do is you would retrieve the most current UTF so you retrieve the nearest header block and you just get the chain back to that and then you would verify that that you TX o matches the check point but then how do you know that that point is right well you know it's right if you use the TMS construction that we have the proof of state paper so those TMS signatures will be embedded periodically throughout the chain ten pick by epoch and you just recursively walk your way back to the Genesis block which is hard-coded with every client so in reality the total amount of data you need to download you only be a few megabytes potentially and then you would still be able to verify that that UT Excel you received is correct which means that you can instantly start working you won't necessarily have your transaction history but what it means is that I can have a light mode with Daedalus and make that the default mode so when you install Daedalus you download a small snippet of things and boom your client just starts working it's just like your ROI in that respect and that as a background process and gradually upgrades itself to the full wallet but it doesn't stop you from using your client it also means that we could start having meaningful discussions about fast bootstrapping for recovery and these things without relying on a third party Explorer or other infrastructure so we're working on that and McCauley at Algren is working on his thing and mi t--'s got their thing and the guys over unity have their thing in fact that we invited all of them to come down to the I which case summit and there's going to be some good people there and we'll talk to them about their best available process but they're writing papers were writing papers and there's going to be a grand convergence of these things what does it mean for you the consumer it means that you're not going to have to ever do what I had to do when I do in the space which is download a loogey client with a really really long time for the chain to propagate to fully download and then then use it instead you're just going to download it use it like you do a cellphone app and then wake up one day and your client happens to be more useful than it was before but you didn't have to wait for that just organically kind of happened okay see what we got here what will happen to Cardinal coins that get lost by lost keys and alike well you know Satoshi Nakamoto had an opinion on that he said that that's like a little gift to everybody in the Bitcoin ecosystem whenever anybody loses their coins and that was 2009-2010 thinking of Bitcoin rockland the stakes were quite low it is a bit disturbing when you say hey we have a global financial system and this global financial system is going to replace the dollar or be an alternative financial operating system for the entire world but then there is no recovery model when something like for example the CEO in exchange dies and his private keys are lost with them or what happens when you have inheritance situations when grandma dies you know and she's the last living member well how do you actually give her crypto to the kids you know what's that process if she never wrote her keys down or they got lost in a fire or something like that we live in the real world and when these things happen we have meatspace human processes to transition and move funds that have been lost or remediate from theft or so forth but in the Krypton world we don't quite have that so there's two schools of thought one school of thought says that you put a governance layer in your system and then if there's an issue you go to the governance layer with some evidence and you say governments layer I have this evidence and as a consequence you can clearly see that what happened was not what we intended I lied ow and there's another school of thought that says buyer beware and if it happens code is law and you're just gonna have to deal with the consequences of that and I Santa Sara spec both are right and actually I think in a certain respect both of these things can actually live together in one ledger and how you do that is you say look we're going to have differentiation on the address level and on the smart contract level for your storage and use of funds so basically what you do is you say I consent to having my funds controlled by a governance system or having sort of restoration process in the event that I get hacked or an issue occurs so I'm going to move my funds to especially constructed to address or to a smart contract that has a bunch of logic that basically allows those funds to be redistributed allows the private keys to move from one set to another set whatever you want so there's logic within there and this is the magic of smart contracts that lets you do that and then we can have an argument as a community of well what are the best practices we should have but here's the thing whatever we implement is voluntary so you get to decide whether you consent to that kind of a system and if you don't like it there can be a competing system for example in finance there's Islamic finance and there's more than a billion people that that need Sharia compliant investment products and they can't participate in certain forms of investment or financial practices out of religious respect so and there's also funds that can't invest in certain things because of ethical reasons for example Norway has one of the world's largest sovereign funds of well over a trillion dollars of money and Norway puts very strict ethical guidelines of what they can invest their sovereign fund it and if you haven't be doing those things even if you're a great investment the country of Norway won't give you money so similarly you can vote with your values and move your funds to an address to a smart contract that carries those particular values so that's the magic of where we're going with these things we will build some of them and then we can leave it to third parties to build the rest now some people say that you you shouldn't even allow this to befall the tree you should have such a pervasive governance system that the ledger can do things like reverse transactions reissue money creatively for example the Tasos governance system conceivably could allow you to create new money blacklist old money and iOS has actually already reversed transactions I do not think that that's ethical or wise we haven't resolved and shape or form the governance problems of the United States or Europe or the rest of the world so why are we to believe that somehow we're so much smarter that when hundreds of millions of people in aggregate can't quite get a government to work properly that some hackers in their basement are going to just dream up the perfect government system that will then be permanently in convert autocracy or an oligarchy and this is a committee not as subject to any particular jurisdictions laws it's like a meta government so you have no recourse or no appeal so I think there's a really really really bad idea and honestly I feel that it's much better to make these things walnut-tree and then for us to argue about what's the best way of implementing them and then once you've consented to something both parties agree that that's fine what does this mean it means that every now and then grandma makes a mistake every now and then an exchange makes a mistake and in which case you've reduced the total supply of the system which is a gift to everybody so at the very least your mistake in a way help other people get a little bit more value and it helped everybody get a little wiser and I frankly feel that any consequences and a cost for an action for it to be meaningful if you always know that you have an insurance policy that no matter what you do you can get bailed out you start behaving as if there are no consequences the way you do things for example with Wall Street when Greenspan gave them a foot and he said hey I'll always make the stock go up or later central bank leadership that allowed the mortgage crisis to exacerbate to a point of crisis and the banks didn't really care because they said well no we'll make the windfall profits today and if the system collapses we'll get bailed out and nice retirement packages you have to create consequences for a feedback loop to organically improve if Apple releases a crummy phone or Samsung releases the phone that explodes they get sued and they have bad press they lose lots of sales billions of dollars so as a consequence they have to put in good processes to avoid these types of things from happening if they said if I release a crappy phone the Korean government's just going to give us a subsidy to make up for the lost profits or the yes governments is going to bail us out well then do they particularly care if the phone is good or bad not so much and that's why certain systems like the education system the health care system the United States are so horribly broken because they've disintermediated the consumer and their purchasing behavior from the quality of the product and the outcome of the product the third-party when we pay either of our student loans or insurance so if they can just can crease the cost reduce the quality make worse outcomes and we're at loggerheads ticket prices from Raoul he asked about discounted tickets for the summit yes there will be a discount if you buy with ADA ADA pays almost done we're working with he ticks on that they're basically building in the interface we're using Eventbrite for our ticketing system so we're building an extension to Eventbrite that allows us to basically accept a debt payment it just takes a little bit of time to do that because those systems were not designed to talk to each other so we've been building for the last month and that's almost done and once it's done that we'll be able to accept ADA payments for the for the tickets and use the singular system for ticketing there's an advantage to not having parallel systems because it's a huge logistic overhead if you have parallel systems because you know you'll have one big piece of automation that Eventbrite provides and that's super turnkey easy but then you have these other tickets so what that would effectively mean is anybody who bought a ticket with ADA which show up and say hey I bought a ticket and then we say oh you're one of those aina people you have to go to that box over there and we have to have like a different line or something and I would much rather everybody's in one process in one system so that meant we had to build a bridge and so the bridge is nearly done and once it's done we'll accept it should be the 18th but maybe a day or two but I don't think it'll slip too much but it were pretty much on target for that and the the system will let you buy ticket pretty easily and inna tickets will be discounted I think it's 15 percent or 20 percent I'll have to talk to Carrie but it's a nice discount it's a sign of appreciation to our ADA holders now I've gotten a little bit of pushback on the ticket prices I the consensus event that coin desk is putting on the earlybird prices are $1200 and I've been to well over 30 conferences last year actually 58 events last year not all of them were conferences but I've seen ticket prices from $100 to $4,000 a ticket and I feel that the prices that we're charging are fairly reasonable now it's important to point out that we are not planning on making a profit from this conference the reason why we're selling tickets is that we are flying out every single aisle HK employee and the many cases family members and we renting big venue and we're providing a lot of value and the cost of doing this is the minimum of a million dollars for us so the hope of the tickets is to recoup the cost of bringing all of our people together we all spark or get them very good speakers to come in additions a lot of great academics have already RSVP'd and they'll be there for panels including some of our competitors and they'll be able to go there and make the case why their protocols are better than our protocols and we also have some surprise guests that are pretty fun and we recently signed up a very very nice musical guest actually two musical guests one is the world famous musician well actually both of them are famous bands that have been around for a while if you buy a VIP ticket you actually get to go to the VIP conference a concert so I think there's just gonna be a lot of value there there's hackathons workshops some of them are going to talk about zero knowledge proof some are going to talk about Plutus some of them are going to talk about a lot of the engineering principles we use how to use NYX there's going to be a crypto puzzle where we're going to take an ATM wallet pick the keywords and break them apart into four different puzzles one will be on the t-shirt and three more throughout the conference hall and the first person to break all four of those puzzles will get the ADA and there you go no purchase necessary and there's just a dozens of other little things like that and there'll be some good sponsors and so forth and it's also an opportunity to not just be me but be literally everybody in my company so if you ever want to meet Phil Wadler or a closer Duncan or Bruno or you know see some of the other people that make the magic happen they're going to be there and many cases giving presentations and you can directly interact with them and we can do some cool stuff together so it's also the American people will be there and the Cardinal foundation will be there we partnered with tan gem and we're hoping that everybody who attends the conference will also get a free tan gym wallet so that's a lot of value and we'll just keep adding and adding and adding as the week's go on and more people get interested in attending so I feel that the ticket prices are quite fair and again the hope is just simply for the tickets to recoup the investment of bringing all of our people together this also gives us a chance to work toward something as a company and we'd like to show a lot of really cool accomplishments by the summit or else would be pretty boring summit so in many ways the existence of a summit like this and the fact that we have that accountability of a deadline kind of forces you to work under pressure and do your best work and get things out quicker so it accelerates the launch of Shelly it accelerates our competitiveness it shows off all the things we've done it'll help us dispel this myth that we're just a white paper and we're just a bunch of academics who have no idea how to ship anything and it'll also allow us to make the case why cardano's the best crypto currency in the world and why we feel we have a good shot of getting to number one and getting getting the ecosystem to be very dominant and we're also going to fly out the Ethiopian class all the gals who have been training the ones who pass will pending their visas getting cleared we'll be able to come and do a presentation so you can actually see firsthand the output of our education efforts in Africa and our entire Enterprise team is going to be there so if you're curious about how we're doing the blockchain side of things the summit will have those people there so that's a lot of value for five hundred dollar ticket and I feel that people are complaining about these prices either they don't go to cryptocurrency conferences and most of them are useless I or they they're just being a little stingy and you know it's not to make money here it's just to break even and also gives me a chance bringing all my people together I miss them and that's one of the tragedies of running a decentralized company while it has a lot of benefits the downside of running a decentralized company is that you don't get to see people that you've become friendlies every day you know if I had just everybody who worked in the same office come in I'd have my coffee and I'd be able to go door-to-door and say hey what are you working on and you know and we'd be able to have a great conversation go out to lunch go get some drinks together but sometimes I'm a little isolated and I can just talk to them over slack so and I can't travel everywhere I tried last year I went to 30 countries so bring them all together for a big event that's just great and it's really heartwarming and it means I finally get to see everybody again last time I did that was in Portugal in January of 2018 so it's it's simply been too long okay let's see what we got here how is Cardona attacking interoperability cross-chain atomic swaps yeah that's good questions so interoperability needs to be basically two things first you need to be able to move value between chains and second you need to move information between chains so it would be nice that you can query Bitcoin and ask it tell me your state I need to know something about you you know what's what's going on what does this block look like and you can get that information and know with reasonable degree of certainty that that feed of information you're getting is correct because there's events that happen everywhere and like you see financial systems and in the traditional crypto world that if you're running a smart contract might be event-driven and it has to process all those events aggregate them and understand what does that mean for you and that could be a trading contract it could be like if this person dies you know give me the inheritance whatever it might be there's a little factors there so you know when we say interoperability generally we're either talking about I can move a token from one system to another system or I can move information or understand information from one system to another system either the outside world another cryptocurrency or the legacy this world so everybody has an opinion on how to do this and opinions are like Wi-Fi you know Wi-Fi Bluetooth and other protocols aren't necessarily the best protocols they're just the ones that ended up winning and now everybody's using them and there's probably at least one person in those spaces that said mine was better and here are these objective tangible factual reasons why it's better but just like in the VHS versus Betamax or the HD DVD vs. blu-ray or Playstation vs Xbox there's winners or losers in business and in standards and at the end of the day somebody's going to win and so the name of interoperability is be pragmatic so whatever the standard is support that and we're going to do that I but it is probably a good idea to have a reasonable conversation about proposing standards so first off there are two principal consensus algorithms used in the cryptocurrency world there are others but two are proof of stake and proof of work so we have protocols to be interoperable with both classes of systems the proof of stake sidechains and the neat Kapow system so we're going to be advocates of those protocols and we already are and we're going around and saying hey here's an improvement proposal you all should adopt this you get great light clients and you get the ability to talk to each other we'd love to see that happen now there are other things for example there are Dex's for like kyburi and they use a ton of crap they facilitate atomic to proxy and swap so you can lose value there's also protocols like inter ledger and there's even discussions about using the Lightning Network as kind of a universal layer to compatibility system between different Ledger's there's no reason why we can do that so we've assigned a product manager to look at lightning and basically look at all the different proposals that exist and we're in a really fortuitous situation where we have a natural set of nodes to run these types of things namely the state pools so in addition to maintaining state ledger you can also maintain these meta systems like Oracle services or lightning notes and we may be able to achieve interoperability through that layer they also they can act as bridges for inter ledger which is a protocol from ripple and we'll look at these things and you know we'll probably roll them out as soon as Shelley and Gogan around because we'll have enough capab in the ledger and I'll be fairly straightforward to do that now closely-related interoperability is a discussion about metadata and this is really really really important metadata is the is kind of like the secret sauce of your transactions so for example you have two events and they're the same value so there's same type of transaction Bob withdraws 500 dollars from his ATM now doesn't matter you know it's Bob and an ATM is the same structural thing it's going from one unit to another unit pulling it up one case here's the metadata bob does it right next to a restaurant and it happens to be Christmas and his family happens to be in town Bob's taking the family out for dinner for Christmas that's what you would infer from that event more likely than not the next case Bob is pulling five hundred dollars out of an ATM at a known brothel right next to it probably imagine Bob's doing something else no this is the same type of transaction Bob taking his $500 that he owns and just just going with it but the implications of that transaction are very different so what does that mean it means metadata in many cases is more important than the transaction itself so how do we reconcile this well one school of thought says metadata doesn't belong on the blockchain and also it's very personal it's very particular and do we do do we really want to live in a world where you know all this stuff is preserved forever on the other hand if you don't in some way represent the metadata of the transaction on the blockchain well then that means your metadata is no longer immutable audible and time-stamped in which case you can you can move one set of metadata to another set of metadata so you can make the family dinner look like the brothel if you wanted to and whereas Bob may not have the ability to get recourse so you can effectively deep fake the the world into believing that you've done something that maybe he didn't do for another example is the commercial intent mind a transaction what I sent you money it was usually because there was some sort of commercial understanding it's a donation its purchase for products it's a trade for surfaces I give you this Timon my love and again the metadata is basically the story why did I send you that money so if block chains are to be interoperable they do have to for either compliance reasons legal recourse refunds a litany of other commercial understandings has to have a metadata component because when you're moving value between Ledger's the metadata is going to flow with and oftentimes just as important so what are we going to do with Cardona well the very least what we're going to do is allow people to take the hash of the commercial intent of the transaction and do contingent settlement transactions so what the heck is that contingent settlement is where Alice sends something to Bob but Bob doesn't get it until Bob agrees to the terms of service so for example let's say a donation alice is sending X amount of ada to Bob to donate to his organization with some terms and conditions I'll only give you this million dollars if you name your your science building after me for a university for example okay so she'll take that Agreement hash it sign it embed it into the transaction send the agreement to send the transaction to Bob it's it's impending it's contingent and then through a different band probably pub/sub Bob will receive the agreement read it agrees to it hashes it signs it embeds it into the transaction and only when both of those components are there does the transaction settle so what does this mean it means that now that bob has the funds so let's see he doesn't name the building then when Alice can do is go to the court and say Court Bob agreed to do this and she has a contract she has his digital signature and now many many many jurisdictions Wyoming now allow us has legal rights and that's as good as it is and that's metadata has been time-stamped it's auditable it's immutable it lives there now you can systematically construct from this basic primitive arbitrarily complex financial arrangements and in many cases perhaps even automate these financial arrangements and have outsource of all servers that live off chain that coordinate things so you can have a private part of the deal that only certain actors know and then you have a public part which is preserved in that metadata is represented properly so these capabilities will work their way into Cardno and they don't take a lot of effort to do and in their easy to overlay and they work very nicely with smart contracts and instantly it allows you to now have a very elegant system to sign contracts and a very elegant system to tell the story of why you're sending money what you're doing what is this all about and if we did install governance systems like for example you embed these types of transactions into those smart contracts I matched I mentioned earlier then that governance system would have something that work with the arbitrator's there would look at the metadata and say yes clearly you did receive this money to do X and there's no evidence that you did that so we're gonna give Alice her refund okay all right let's look at the rest of questions we got here [Music] [Music] tunnelled obama that's a odd name now I get this question a lot and practice how many Fortune 500 companies are using blood chain or cryptocurrencies some are using blockchain we talked to them but the majority are not using crypto including JPMorgan Chase they've decided to create their own coin I see that's what we were saying a long time ago alright see what else we got here did you do is Rina still a thing or did we do a new approach us watching the old whiteboard video you know whenever you set up an aggressive research agenda you do a lot of high-risk high-return research and what you do is you start for gold you say look it'd be super cool to to get all of these things and Rina was one of those high-risk high-return mega projects that basically we said let's go shoot for it let's go try it and see how far we can get so the Haskell team has kind of a spiritual successor like a micro version Rina that has a lot of the concepts and principles of Rena embedded within it and they're working their way towards that and there lay a lot of progress has been made and the other problem with Rena is it's not a hundred percent fit for perfect a purpose for a peer-to-peer system it requires some slight modifications with how diffs work so we've done a heck of a lot of research and we thought about it I asked Neal and Peter and others in our company to give me an estimate of how much would it cost to do all arena the way that they wanted to do it and their estimate was about ten million dollars and six hundred man months of engineering and that was a preliminary estimate which was of course going to be subject to your standard cost overruns and delays so what we did is we scaled Rina back a little bit and then we said let's take the best concepts and ideas we think for a shorter time horizon a one to three year horizon and let's go chase those and if we accomplished that puts us in a really good position for later generations of the protocol to move in that direction Rina in its grandest and most purest form would require special hardware and that might make sense if we're talking about satellites it may make sense if we're talking about mesh nets so as Ada grows and we start trying to escape the regular internet and imagine a new more fair internet especially in places that are first getting it and they're getting it for the first time it'll make a lot of sense to go in that particular direction and because we have no loyalty to legacy protocols it allows us to have a clean slate networking is among one of the most opinionated and complex issues because a lot of the times the things that you want to do you can't do so what you have to do is basically play a game of well how do I do the least harmful thing to my user base it's almost like neurology or brain surgery generally speaking you don't make your patients healthier when you treat them you're just slowing down the degeneration someone has Parkinson's or Alzheimer's or someone has a brain tumor it's not exactly like you're gonna say okay here's this drug I've cured your condition no it's more like I can give you an additional two or three years of meaningful life similarly when you're dealing with networking you can have these ideal beautiful protocols that have lots of security and great properties but they have to be deployable and live on the regular internet which is constrained and subject to older hardware very older protocols and a lot of suboptimal design decisions that are provably bad and exploited on often basis so ton of complexity in the implementation of network protocols comes from hardening your protocols to defend yourself against imperfections and mistakes of the original internet and it's just a sad reality of where we're at and that's why it's so hard to innovate in this particular space and so frustrating innovate in this space and a lot of times when people care so deeply about performance and reliability they build their own networks that are out of man and they don't go on the general internet so where you still have Reena on our heart and we've learned a heck of a lot by pursuing it but the grand Rena with the capital R is probably not going to work its way into Cardinal in a 2020 horizon but some variant of its concepts will and will be sufficiently good I think to be a major innovation over how cryptocurrency work if you look at the space protocol lab system could work with lit p2p and there's been certainly a lot of discussion like the unity guys are a lot of our network guys so they're thinking a lot about how to improve network stacks but unfortunately this is an understudy area and it's something that we badly need innovation in because we're starting when we bring these second generation or third generation of scaling protocols then we're going to reach massive theoretical bottlenecks where our bottlenecks are no longer the consensus algorithm being following but rather being able to move the information between people and if you have a homogeneous gossip protocol that's naively implemented you're basically gonna end up self ddossing or something when you have a too much flow and you need things like that pression opening temperature tax and protection from eclipse attacks and so forth so working our way towards it when bankrupt never when delisting never we're doing good guys gotta love these trolls though Nostradamus can you help the LMS in the French Revolution with smart contracts for them to vote population is asking for citizens referendum I think we can have millions of people adoption you know it's it's really tragic that we have people who want to express themselves in the world and we still live in a world where there are small group of actors who seem to control that global narrative about the intent and meaning behind what you do we'd like to believe we live in the time of the Enlightenment and if you have an argument or you want to say this is what you intent and what you meant that you'd be listened to people give you a fair shake unfortunately what happens is that a protest occurs and the protesters are there for a reason but then somebody decides to take that and put their own spin on it say well this is what the pro test was really about in the United States we had Occupy Wall Street we also had the Tea Party before Occupy Wall Street and there were some cases in bed within that movement very very legitimate grievances about the way society is structured and in many ways it feels that it's just fundamentally unfair and the yellow vests are no different in that respect but what's unfortunately happened is the media has still has a huge amount of power to make these things seem like what they're not or in some cases just completely bury these things we had a populist uprising in 2009 in Iran that was so vicious it actually nearly overthrew the government we had pro-democracy movements in Hong Kong which were brutally shut down and people used mesh next to communicate with each other the same for Mubarak and Egypt and at least that one was successful so it's not my job as a designer of protocols to take sides I would be compromised and I would ultimately diminish my effectiveness in building these protocols I must be like a judge I must be dispassionate and neutral it's my job however to build the best capabilities possible and make those capabilities as accessible as possible to everyone so that people can take those capabilities for whatever that a particular movement happens to be whether it's legitimate or not that's for the rest of the society to decide but it allows them to take it and at least be able to express themselves without fear of coercion manipulation reprisal or corruption of the message and if people attempt to corrupt the message or to get retribution for it that these tools also can allow society to see that front and center so that's an idealistic dream it's an idealistic goal but it's I think something that is obtainable within my lifetime so what does it mean means that we need to use the best processes and we need to use the the best available engineering but at the end of the day these things are only going to work if the general public knows how to use them and decides to use them and thinks that they're important to use them and that's a moral choice and I can't make that for them all I can do is build things I'd like to see within my lifetime a fundamental change in the incentives of journalism I think they're fundamentally broken at the moment the journalism is not about reporting reality and it's not about ensuring that people get a fair and accurate representation of what happened journalism is about creating hype and excitement and ultimately entertainment because at the end of the day on the broadcast system usually you have no power you can't really do anything about it so if you turn it into an interactive drama at least people feel like they're part of the play that part of the show even though they're just watching history moved by they're not making it so we see interactions headlines stories fact-checking all these things which are just not constructed anyway for productive dialogue which actually why you see systems like the intellectual darkwave be so prominent powerful because at least there instead of having these clickbait headlines and small blog posts that who cares if they're right or wrong who cares what we say there's no consequences you have long debates which do not terminate with just one video for example Jordan Peterson and Sam Harris have been going at it and the secular humanist movement have been going at it was Jordan Peterson about well is God useful and does God exist and should we believe in God it's an interesting question and we see numerous debates and and both sides are going at it but they're going at it in a constructive way where they're actually not attacking each other personally they're not going after is Jordan a good person or Sam a good person they're actually going after the crux of the argument and we're actually making social and progress as a consequence of these things but not just for nature of God but also things like policy should we have universal basic lickings resources you know these types of conversations and if that's not okay well then then what is the alternative and will the alternative create a situation where all that collective wealth that's been created by those people and their companies could actually be compromised or destroyed like what we saw in Venezuela so these are tough questions and they're very nuanced and they're multivariate the yellow vest situation is just another reflection of that and oftentimes those types of protests are symptoms of a broader problem where there's groups of society that are afraid the way things are going that they're going to ultimately be left out and put into a position where they're basically indentured servants to a system they'll wake up every day work hard no matter what they do what education they get the content of their character or the quality of their merit they're stuck in the mud so imagine conceptually if you were born and somebody just put a five million dollar debt at a five percent interest rate on your head no matter what you do unless you get exceedingly lucky like win the lottery or you know you you start a business and somehow that business ends up being crazy successful more or not you're just basically permanently in debt now if you could take that and say that there's a social component to that and if you're put into a particular class or you live in a particular economy and environment it's effectively the same deal and we see this in many different countries like the United States we have areas which have systemic poverty the Appalachian mountain range if you live in West Virginia and you come from like a coal mining area where Pennsylvania's same way in certain areas it is really hard to get ahead in life not many jobs high unemployment rate in the places where you can get a job pay less we're no longer hiring so you don't have a lot of options so either you leave which case you're leaving your family and your friends and the things that you know and love or you stay and you accept a very very bad job or you accept having to just scrape by and as a consequence of spending everything you make you actually get systematically poorer because wages are not increasing with inflation so as a consequence what does it mean it means that you don't have the ability to create a savings and you're basically a slave to the system and you're getting your buying power is going down every year because you as monetary policy it's a bad deal now take that and replicate that to millions of people and you got a movement and those people are going to have a voice and say we want something better and it's not good to just look at them and say well yeah they if they just only got a college degree that would somehow solve the problem or if they just only learned to program that would solve the room that's patronizing and in many cases it does nothing or would require sacrifices which mean that they're able to get ahead at the expense of other people so I see these movements whether it be occupier yellow vests as symptoms of broader social problems and I see the frustration that people have in that the systems of communication we have and the narrative that the media propagates is not fit for purpose for us to actually have a discussion about how are we going to solve things you know my industry this entire industry only exists as a consequence of the system the legacy system being bankrupt we're not the criminals the whole reason we exist is because they are you know if there's no greater example a recent example of this than what JP Morgan has done and 2017 the CEO says bitcoin is for criminals it's a scam it's a bad deal and now they're launching their own token and that's totally okay and apparently that's fine and but yeah where there's no value in anything we do but when they do it it's fine and let you shut up and be patient and enjoy it it's insulting it's patronizing and it's endemic of larger problems so instead of saying hey let's just let's just accept it that way that's the way life is for the first time in human history we have social tools cryptocurrencies and the derivative protocols of them to actually be able to do something about it you don't like your money make your own money you don't like the way consent voting works build a different system and I think over time this will have a huge impact and eventually topple society as it was and replace it with something a bit better [Music] do you think there's something better than proof of work or proof of stake to replace the current protocol well there are certainly people that run around they claim that they have the thing to solve all your problems like the latest - that I've seen or Avalanche and hash graph where they say they're just so much better conceptually that you shouldn't even think about proof of work or proof of stake you know these things are just dead and dying and they ought not to exist first off you have to think about the philosophy of what your consensus protocol is saying the value of proof of work is that it is assembling lots of computational power it's bringing a lot of computing power together now the mistake of Bitcoin is that that computing power because of the nature of the protocol is effectively useless and always will be useless its ASIC optimizable meaning that you can go do one thing and build special hardware to do that thing faster than everybody else and it's just a game of doing that one thing over again and it provides no value no benefit to society other than the fact that you can do that one thing that's a really bad way of doing things but it was a necessary way of doing things to bootstrap the ecosystem what's much more meaningful is saying like the GPU or CPU based algorithm where because of some design of it the only way you can do that thing is to use a general-purpose computer then you're doing two things now instead of just saying we're solving problems you're also saying oh by the way I've just built a great computer with hundreds of thousands of machines that have a lot of capacity to work on general problems like folding proteins like storing data and verifying that you possess that data you know things like searching the Stars for alien life whatever that might be so the next generation of proof of work will be less about you know how do we achieve you know more optimal asic and it's going to be a lot more about saying let's better use the fact that we've aggregated all this raw computational capacity which will Auto upgrade because its consumer hardware without having to pay for that upgrade and let's now steer this computational capacity in a productive direction we've seen some flirting with these ideas with things like prime coin that was the very first example in later papers like pro mcclain and paper out of Berkeley called useful proof of work and my hope is the proof of work system will move in that particular direction in addition to getting rid of the mining pool monopolies and also you know embracing the quality dag stuff and so forth in terms of concepts like throughput and latency the protocols have evolved to a point where throughput can be considerably increased so you can get things that are tens of thousands of TPS if you really want to and the trade-off profile is increasingly getting more reasonable and in confirmation latency will get better as well over time and we wrote a paper on the relationship between the two and some theoretical maximums of what you can and can't do prove mistake is a fundamentally different system it found a way to replicate the lottery a proof of work but doesn't require a computational capacity and actually I'll tell you one of my proudest moments and my career in the entire cryptocurrencies but it came very recently and something I'll mention at the i/o which case summit and boy it's it's really magical I was talking to Marcus and Marcus had told me that he's trying to get a steak pool to work on a rock pipe or a rock pie is it sells is ROC kpi high and it sells for like $70 it's a very low-cost device and it only uses a few watts of power like four watts of power and if once once we have this tested out you'll try to compile it and run it and we're work really closely with them because I'd love to do this there's long and short one of these little boards which is basically the size of a cell phone kind of actually looks like this calendar this is about how big it would be with everything yet one of these little boards four watts of power can run a stake pool and if that's the case you'd only need a thousand of them to run a thousand stake pool so you're running an entire system a global scale financial system five kilowatts of electricity that heater right there uses about 1.5 so I just need a few of those and I can run a global scale system that's a hundred times more decentralized in Bitcoin 30 times throughput confirmation times 15 times faster think about that five kilowatts that's about 20 solar panels if you're doing those 250 watt solar panels you could power a global scale financial system and it'll get more power efficient over time it's unbelievable that you could build a system like that and have it work and that's a consequence of good protocols and that's a consequence of good science and it's humbling to think that that's how far we've gone in just such a short period of time and very quickly will converge there so anyway proof of stake is less about power consumption it's as low as it's going to get 5 kilowatts is nothing it's now about talking about who should be in control so what proof-of-work does is it Ponton it's it's a meritocracy it's exogenous system it lives outside of your system and whoever the hell can figure out Asics and subsidized power and that very weird Sharky predatory game their masters and just accept that they're smarter than you and they're in control and once they get in control that's usually an aristocracy and they're there in that game unless you're very rich hundreds of millions of dollars billions of dollars and great connections you're just not going to be in that Club so don't even think about it and their total control of all thing whereas where as proof of stake you know that's basically saying well now no matter who you are if you own a few units of the system you're gonna have some influence over it not a lot but some and that's proportional to your amount of ownership in the system but we can augment that eventually as the systems evolve with other factors like we can layer in not just your ownership of a token but also are you providing resources are you a valued member of this ecosystem like if we're in a liquid democracy system you're a delegate for lots of votes maybe you get a better chance of winning to get a block and that's measurable in the system you're providing a lot of bandwidth to people or storage maybe you get a little bit more chance to win so we're just at the infancy of a very long conversation which will take years to decades to work our way through about biasing the proof of state model to include more than just the raw ownership of the asset and what this effectively means is we're not just talking about consensus we're talking about your value in the system whether you're a good actor or a bad actor according to some collection of metrics that we've determined are good that's Darwinian some people will get it right some people won't but it's a really exciting time and ultimately I think that proof of stake will overcome proof of work as a dominant consensus system proof of work will still be valuable but it's going to change the way it works it's more about saying I want to build it a centralized grid computer Allah folding at home and I am using a system to bring these teams two types of nodes together proof of stick is hitting the crux of the who decides and who pays and whose valuable and who's not and how do we empower people and hold people accountable for the decisions they've made now the very same mechanisms that you could use for that you could also apply to platforms for example if you're the sargon issue with patreon or the T platforming of conservative people on Twitter or YouTube wherever you fall in that political spectrum this is an issue where you have these systems where we build them we make them we make Twitter we make Facebook many people come together create the product and there is no product without us but then you have an unelected dictatorship that basically decides the rules of the game and can change them arbitrarily including destroyer entirely livelihood arbitrarily based upon their political whims and wills with no oversight or checks or balances that model will die that model must die we kill kings we kill dictators humans have moved beyond that and we look at kings and dictators as terrible things we should never regress back into that for the sake of expediency or necessity for how we get our news how we interact with people or who has legitimate opinions or not so they have to go but what do you replace it with well we're talking about a system where we're trying to decide who's good to interact with and who's bad to interact with what's correct good behavior what's not so good behavior so the same concepts that allow you to determine that for who should be in charge of running the chain can also be potentially reused to say what is good information versus what is bad information and you can collectively reach a decision about good members or bad members without having a leader at the top it's just an organic process that occurs that is where we're going with this type of technology this is what we're thinking about with this type of technology and something that makes me profoundly excited because I think that this is a problem that can be solved in the next 10 years and what this effectively means is it will kill the Facebook's and the Twitter's and the reddit's and these other platforms and replace them with infrastructure that is a public good that is self-sustaining that allows people to express themselves in the ways that they want without fear of reprisal now another thing that that really is interesting is closely related to this concept of control and value is this idea of penalties you know if I pollute there are a lot of countries in the world that think it's a good idea to just say it's a lot you're allowed to do that as long as you buy carbon credits or as long as you buy some indulgences and the Catholic Church many many years ago and pay for the Crusades decided to create a system where you're allowed to sin and but you could buy your way into heaven if you just paid the right priests off you know so there's all throughout human history this notion that sometimes we behave badly and if we pay a fine we we are allowed to recover from that bad event now we run into this terrible problem that social infractions for example of the the more memo or other things we're you know some people believe that people have said or behaved badly they've done something that socially it responds instead of just saying say you're sorry and we'll move on there's a group of people think that there's no way to come back from that and the only way to solve the problem is by destroying that person's life the platforming them robbing them of their economic livelihood firing them from their job making them a social pariah and there is no forgiveness none maybe twenty years in the future you can crawl back and beg for table scraps but no it's total destruction total burn the person down isn't it an interesting thing that we could one day potentially have a system where you could behave badly you could maybe be a little sexist maybe say offensive things and if you're caught doing that you there's a tokenization of these things and you could pay a pittance a social token and that gets you back into good graces and it allows you to become a proper member of society again and if you consistently behave badly you go socially bankrupt and then you get kind of isolated off but if you you know I only occasionally do it but you can recover a little bit and then everybody just kind of looks the other way they say well they paid the price this is not only a hypothetical it's actually being thought about by governments and institutions for example Social Credit in China and this carries very profound implications both negative and positive for the gamification of human behavior and for also our ability to say that certain members of society are productive good members of society we all tend to sometimes break the rules sometimes we speed sometimes people don't pay for a train because it's only one stop and it's late at night you know these things happen and it doesn't necessarily mean that people are bad actors interesting question now cryptocurrencies are also on the forefront of that because at the end of the day they're incentive engines they allow you to create value and distribute that value amongst people and decide who ought to get it who will not get it it's interesting concepts so proof of stake is at the heart of all of that because it creates a foundation of research a corpus of research which ultimately can be repurposed for all of these things whether we're talking about a social credit system or penance system for indulgences or we're talking about carbon reduction we're talking about it sent us to clean up the oceans or we're just talking about who should we listen to in an information stream without a nominating a dictator and having that dictator have total control over our lives it's pretty interesting okay what else to be gotten and if you haven't figured out by now I tend to give people very long answers that go in different directions some people truly hate this and some people really like this and I like to believe that the people that really hate this have already left the ecosystem and they are they are now happy purchasers of yo Cintron people hate it when I do that to some people we gone with this come on guys I'm looking for an interesting question something with lots of meat that people find interesting well hello from Turkey what area Turkey it's a beautiful place and Nipah pals vs. min the limbal will they accomplish different things but even if they did the same thing the papayas are awesome and I think they're better because we invented it hi Charles can you speak more about the coffee smart contract case in Ethiopia oh sure that's gonna be a fun one and you know what's the what's the end goal where do we want to go okay so let's say you go to Starbucks and you have your cup of coffee and it has this is 20 years in the future like far in the future you always have to start with the end in mind and kind of work your way backwards Stephen Covey's did then is seven Habits of Highly Effective People says start with the end in mind if you die what will people say at your funeral okay so give her a cup of coffee and I have my cell phone right here and I scan the QR code now what what just happened I get some information on my app and it basically tells me what's the story of that cup of coffee we don't think about stories with fungible guts and products when you see one bar of gold versus another bar gold you know you like care what the story is it's gold you have your cup of coffee it's coffee but what's happened is as a society we've moved to an evolved state and say look we live in an algorithm rich data rich environment and as a consequence we can now actually talk about where the beans in that coffee came from and then give that information to the consumer and what does this mean it means that you as the consumer now have for the first time ever the ability to understand if those beans meet your values these all you're just being a liberal flu flu you know I only only bearded hipsters from Boulder care about that okay well what if you find out that those coffee beans were harvested by slaves people who were actually held at gunpoint before us to harvest them would that be okay a lot of people saying no what if you find out that those coffee trees come from region where to plant those trees and maintain those trees it caused dozens of indigenous species to go extinct giraffes and other things they just died out because they harvested that farmland would you be okay with that some people yes no okay so the point isn't to say well this is good or bad by an entity like a government the point is rather saying by tracking these things you as a consumer get to make some decisions now we're already starting to do that and we're doing a very crude ham-fisted way and it's a little dishonesty like for example organic or vegan friendly or these types of things they'll put labels on and in in the you know maybe there's regulation maybe there's not or non GMO that's another thing the point is that systems are being built today for the purposes of fair trade Carbon Reduction sustainable farming practices whatever they may be that will inevitably allow us 20 years in the future to be able to scan that cup of coffee and understand the story behind that product and the hope is then that you the consumer getting that information can now be a more discriminating consumer you're already a discriminating consumer when you look at two products and one says Made in China and the other says Made in Japan or made in Germany or made in USA just by stereotypes and brand bias you'll think that the Chinese product probably is inferior to the German product or the Japanese product or the American product because you say well Chinese goods tend to be mass manufactured and made it a very low cost so you know all things considered maybe the German product is better that might not actually be true but you believe that because of biases and stereotypes you have when you go to a big data world instead of going into the aggregate and just believing something because that's your mental model you actually can go into the particular for the first time ever okay so that's the abstract now let's go to the particular let's actually talk about what we're doing in Ethiopia so what we're doing in Theo Pia is we have a three-part model for how we do government contracting part one is where we enter a jurisdiction and partner with the ministry usually Science and Technology or education you know something that has a techy feel to it because they control the university either connect bursaries pilots and hire locals to run those pilots to look at verticals like AG tech for example we're very obsessed with that need dop a coffee and we'd like train a bunch of people and teach them what is a blockchain how to be a good programmer or how to use our tech that we're building and also just how to think around how to build these types of applications ok and they always say yes they say you want to train people and hire them and give them nice high-paying jobs oh yes no no please don't do that no they always say yes so they say ok let's do that then we build a class and negotiation with them and we send out our best and brightest that we have the best we have can offer large moon yes he's a brilliant guy we send out Polina as well she's great and they they go there and they say we're gonna teach these people Haskell or something and that's a great way of filtering the class should they pass it then we know their rigorous they're good candidates and we hire them if they can pass we hire them so in the moment we have 23 people all women in Ethiopia 19 from Ethiopia 4 from Uganda and the class is about halfway through and we see some great very encouraging progress and I hope they all pass but the standards the standard we don't discriminate by gender or race or culture we say this is the standard and they have to measure up and if they measure up we hire them ok then stage 2 we go and do pilot so you crowd out on you Theo Pia and you say all right let's look at a particular region where it'd be really cool to build out a supply chain and what does that mean it means that we find an area where we can model from start to finish from the farmers trees to the donkey that they put those beans on the back to the washing stations to all the logistic networks that get it to the central exchanges to sell it we can model that whole thing out then once we model this whole thing out then we say how do we identify each person in that chain that after we identify each person what is the metadata about and what types of transactions and we might even write a DSL they actually model and describe all of these types of things then how do we get information into the system and then how do we incentivize information to enter the system and that can be through group loans like if you do this you get money for stumping that can be that you get higher prices on your beans and we can subsidize that through many models the it's it's a complicated affair but anyway basically the pilot kind of figured these things out then once that model is built and you'll notice that we have locals who are interfacing with the people so they understand the culture they speak the language but then we also have our engineers working with them as well so both sides are doing some great things that pilot then constitutes feasibility analysis to scale this across the entire vertical so if it works there we'll try to take it to all million-and-a-half coffee farmers now how do we deploy it to them if we have a sustainable model we set up a company a subsidiary and it's a partially owned subsidiary we give the government some of the equity the employees on the ground some of the equity you might even make it a co-op where we give the farmers some of the equity so it's owned by the people in addition to us and we can offset to the cost of deploying to all million-and-a-half through venture capital through impact funding through international grants so we go to the government say we're all a whole system and you don't pay anything upfront and then every time something enters the supply chain or supply chain is used if pays small tolls for that which is affordable but in aggregate you're talking about millions and millions and eventually billions of transactions and that sums up the hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue with something that will eventually run the entire market so it becomes a hyper profitable franchise Abal white-label whole piece of infrastructure that I can take and put across an entire vertical in different countries now what else have we done well I just didn't build a supply chain I took a million half people and I gave them cryptocurrency wallets I gave them the ability to transact and manage private keys and that ledger because I built it it's gonna be interoperable with card ATO which means I just brought a million and a half users into card ah so why don't we have a about partnerships and these other things because at the end of the day we're not going to win in the Western world to begin it's a rigged system guys JPMorgan Chase and Goldman Sachs and these other guys they've already won they've already rigged it and if it becomes big deal you don't think Amazon and Facebook and Google and Microsoft aren't going to come and play with their bill of users what the hell is it going to do for me when Microsoft coins built into Windows and they have two billion users or Facebook coins built into Facebook wallet into the messenger and they got a billion and a half users and it's a cloud application so they have a great user experience with that works on mobile not gonna win that fight guess what I can win the Africa fight and by aggregate that gives me half a billion users two billion users and it carries our values it's decentralized it's free and fair and it's helping some of the poorest people in the world create wealth and rise up and what does that mean it means that then that gives me collective negotiating power that should get reasonable regulation because I say if you want to be interoperable with my system and make trillions of dollars working with these people who are about to come wealthy you have to be fair so you have to think about self sovereign identity and you have to protect people's privacy and you have to give them control over their assets they have collective bargaining power so instead of just accepting the dictatorships of these these tyrannical companies we can now actually create that much better more efficient systems and kill the middlemen of necessity we can burn their companies to the ground and replace them with things that are owned by all of us open protocols open systems no middlemen now there's still room for entrepreneurship but that means the only way you make money is if you do something you create something you don't make money by rushing your way to a monopoly and then making a deal with the government preserve your monopoly and startups are starting to go towards I'm not comfortable with it I think it's a dark road to go down so I'm gonna go to Africa I'm gonna go to Asia and I'm gonna win there and there's billions of people there and there's trillions and trillions and trillions of dollars of wealth there and by the way if you're talking about cryptocurrency adoption who buys cryptocurrencies who uses cryptocurrencies young people and where are the youngest people in the world 70% of Ethiopia is under the age of 30 and the vast majority of those people are Internet able and have heard and in some cases used cryptocurrencies and are used to the idea of mobile money and grew up in a monetary system where the government money sucks and they've had to do things about that already so when you go and make the case that cryptocurrency are a better system would you rather be selling it to 55 year old pensioners that listen to Fox News or do you rather be selling it to the people that are actively looking for an alternative and by the way their economy is growing at 10 percent per year think about that you know so that's the key and then once you get these people then you're in a position to negotiate and you can negotiate with leverage the dumbest thing you can do in the world is go and say give me X when you have no leverage for X it's like asking for a raise to your boss if you are fungible expendable you produce nothing of true value and you're just kind of there you're like the dork reader at some store and you whether you're there or not the business runs you can't go to your boss and say give me a 50% razor I walk they say Bobby it's been nice having you here but maybe it's time for you to retire but if you happen to be in a key role of your company you happen to be if you walk out the door they lose millions of billions of dollars you've got a lot of leverage so would you rather go to the US government or the European Union and say guys you don't do business with us you lose five trillion dollars or you're gonna be pushed into a financial collapse so let's talk about how we're going to do business in a fair way for the world or would you rather go and say out of the Grace and goodwill of your heart can you please please please help me can you can you please please please do things the honest moral right way what position would you rather be in you asking for the same thing and that's the key you see so what we're gonna do is we're gonna go to the with a pan-african strategy and go to Asia and we're gonna build up a way of getting millions eventually tens of billions eventually hundreds of millions into our system through enterprise public private partnerships that make systems better there's international desire to build these systems for Carbon Reduction fair trade practices and sustainable farming a lot of money available through direct foreign investment impact funding it the government's themselves and the infrastructure is about ready to do it we're gonna go do that you'll put it in and then once we're there we're in a real great position to collectively bargain and make sure that regulation doesn't go insane I do not want to live in a world where you have to have an escrow of all your private keys and give that to the government I do not want to live in a world that to use Bitcoin you have to be a licensed money service business and get a million dollars worth of licenses I do not want to live in a world where at any given time usage of a system to express your opinion it may result in you losing Social Credit and then eventually being exiled from society just don't want to and the things that will push the world in this direction our tyrannical centralized hierarchical companies that are preserving their power and if we do nothing the default state will be to move in this particular direction the only way we can prevent that is to depower these structures and the only way we can do that is through leverage and this is how you create it okay so that's what we're going to do that's that's our strategy if you don't like it there's two thousand-plus cryptocurrencies in the world and there's lots of other companies doing interesting things and you know go buy XRP Luthor they're playing in the Western world and they're the Ned Flanders of cryptocurrencies if the regulator says spying on your customers they'll find a way to do it but for me I have principles and values and just where I'm on my sleeve and some people hate me for them and some people love me for him and that's that's just the way it is Craig right I've got more money than your African country I ever tell you guys the story of that you know I was in Rwanda and I knew that somebody from his company was going to speak on a panel that I was on but he wasn't on the agenda so I didn't know he was there I had to find out I'm on a panel with Craig right like an hour before I go on the panel and I never met him I just knew of him very very distasteful hey guys so it why not why not go and talk to him okay so we're in the back room getting ready for the panel and Craig comes on in guys phone is looking at it like this and the guys trying to brief us all about how the panel is going to be and every about minute he just lifts his head and yells at that guy says no you're wrong and I'm right I have more money than you and I'm right and the other guys we're all just looking at each other like who the hell is this guy Jesus Christ you know did he not take his wheat in the nineties Wheaties this morning I mean what's going on so so I told the moderator I really don't want to speak on this panel and they say no you have to the President of Rwanda is here you know it's a big government event it would be irresponsible dabao I said all right well I'll go do my speech and I'll sit on the panel but when he speaks they'll walk out so I did my speech and when he spoke I walked out of the room and then we were on the panel and and it was just amazing the answer is that I saw is this some questions and the mentality that this guy had I control everything I'm smarter than all of you I patent everything the good news about the cryptocurrency space is that over time over the years not necessarily the days or weeks we seem to be pretty good at eventually exposing and writing out these types of people and increasingly isolating them and I hope that that's what happens in his particular case if that is how we're gonna go and what our party is all about I don't want any part in it I don't think it's really going to accomplish anything I'd rather just go work for DARPA you know at least you at least you get to see something you want there okay let's see what else we got here sorry for the tangent but I just really do not like that guy and I'm sure he doesn't like me I ran him into a yokohama and he gave me a pretty big scowl and he says i'm a scam artist but you know dan says that too and i'm going to f Denver tomorrow so we'll see what they say there's thousands of a theory of people and I'll kind of walk in and and we'll see if these keyboard warriors will say to my face what they tell me over Twitter [Music] hey Charlie if you work for a company he would have been fired long ago there are deadlines to me you can't take forever with any project let's talk about deadlines we get criticized all the time for that this is gonna be fun y'all ready for another Charles rant everybody everybody fired up for that here's the thing you know let's talk about the microsoft hololens and let's talk about Natal and research if you came to me and you said hey I got a great idea for a product it weighs a lot it gets really heavy you know after you wear it for a few hours it gets hot three thousand dollars it's got a short battery life and this augmented reality headset it's got a field of view like this and and boy am I not doing a great job you know if you try to ship that as a production consumer product and expose that to the general public so it would be the biggest flop of all time and and you just be laughed out of industry so why is the hololens not labeled as this extraordinary failure and Microsoft is is yet again incompetent and this company you know just to want to be and they're not real well because we all understand that that hololens that Kipp is making is a vision of a future of computation and its kind of take a while to get there but when we get there it's gonna be magical because you're gonna be walking by with eyeglasses at some point looking at a store and hologram will show you the hours right there on the window or the ratings right there on the window you're gonna look at your shoes and the hologram can show that maybe there's damage on the shoe you know there's a there's scuff or scrape or you can look at a car and instantly get insurance information or other things it's like just it's this incredible world it's like world with annotations you get the director's cut with commentary about the world around you and they're literally constructing a product before to deliver this vision so are we all going to complain that the 1.0 is not so good no because what they're selling is a vision and we believe because they're Microsoft and they have a good team of people that they're gonna get to that vision so what have we done while we've written 40 papers forty four zero no one else has written that kind of volume where we have tackled some of the hardest problems in the entire cryptocurrency space proof of stick is no longer a theoretical side-chains is no longer theoretical it they work we have papers we know they work we're implementing them people are stealing our stuff they're copying our stuff it's gotten to the point where imitation is acceptable so we took some of the hardest problems in the space with a research agenda and resolve those problems more than 20 of our papers have been peer reviewed we have decided to take some of the hardest code you could write in some of the hardest engineering standards and not only did we go and run and embrace it we shipped we ship for major updates soon a fifth update and we got a lot of stuff on the horizon and we went from oneexchange to 25 we went from a small community to a hundred thousand plus people all around the world if you look at there's more than two thousand crypto currencies we've been in the top 15 since launch and we did all of this with relatively little funding compared to EOS or any of these other guys and we continue to grow we continue to the liver and we continue to pivot when we decide that a strategy's not working instead of doubling down we released Icarus which became your ROI and now 15% of the network is on it well we realized that Haskell may be too slow to get a production product into market in a time frame you guys want we launch card on a rust and built it up and it may it's already starting to dramatically improve things and speed things up but it's also making the Haskell team faster we make key personnel changes all the time and we've done all of this and about a year since launch a little over a year since launch so with all due respect what are your KPIs is a community grows because we won there is a price because we won there compared to what was sold at where we launched that great appreciation there is it software quality it's massively gone up as an innovation people are imitating copying us we're the world leader and cryptocurrency research we did this from nothing so we're winning there is it my personality maybe I don't know yeah I'm kind of a dick deal with it you know you have to be to run a multinational company in 16 countries with 160 people the hyper competitive marketplace where money of your competitors just lie I had to deal with big connectline we had to deal with people lying to regulators we had to deal with the damn crypto Serge in 2017 we went on Bloomberg and said guys people are gonna lose all their damn money and because this is a bubble we're still here consensus is firing half the damn company we're still here we're still hiring we're still growing and we've been able to pivot multiple times without throwing the company away so fire me away I'm doing fine man my life is great how's yours and by the way Cardno is awesome and you know i love our community i love the technology we're working on and i love the fact that we're able to keep our principles and i love the fact that we're able to work at a increasingly more elegant pace there are not many places in the world where you can with a straight face say we're going to do model checking and property testing and write formal specifications and latex and write software in haskell yet make that a consumer product that will eventually work on a cell phone they'll say ah but we have no pathway to bleb assembly or javascript fine we'll build the tools for it you know no one does that even multinational big companies they don't get that crazy but we're doing it we're doing it real time or do it quickly and we're doing it with a decentralized company where I don't see my people every day you know what I have to trust my employees to come and do their 8 hours yep they do and a lot of cases 8 is 16 how the hell have we been able to get people this passionate this good to work with a very stressful condition with tight deadlines day after day after day if we're all just incompetent we're here for the money it's all one big scam that's the question I've never seen answered by these jackoff keyboard warriors in the space you know here's what they're really saying I bought at a dollar and now it's four cents and I'm upset that I don't have endless money because I did no work okay that's about as a that's about as morally justified as buying Amazon stock at the peak in two thousand complaining that Jeff Bezos didn't get it instantly back up for you y'all had to wait 11 years for that it didn't mean he's incompetent didn't mean that Amazon's a bad company it's just the way markets work it's just the way this industry works if you want to be real about whether people are making progress you have to look at what are they doing day by day where are the innovating and what is the vision and how is that vision going to grow and I'd like to say pound for pound I think ours is the best in the space now people can disagree and there's well over 2000 different projects at the moment with different visions so diversification is your key as long as we can disable adverts on the hololens oka that is really dystopian you wake up and you just see all these ads you know and especially if they're targeted ads you're like why do I keep getting viagra ads does Google think it doesn't work hello Vietnam good to see you guys thank you for being here I love Vietnam it's a great country every time I go to Ho Chi Minh I just have so much fun all right I'm looking for one last good one because we're getting that button two hours here trying to make it a quick one well I which cake consider making a decentralized exchange I honestly think what Khyber is doing or any of these decentralized X's using cross chain swaps probably the way to do it because you know cross-strait swaps are good enough to move value it's just a question of matching an order book and there are a lot of ways you can build that and there's some really really good concepts that are starting to flow out so that's that's an interesting I think there will be a self-fulfilling prophecy and it'll be super cool to augment that with trusted hardware to massively accelerate it and also guarantee front-running and other things can't happen and what we're going to do is just wait a little bit probably focus on lightning support but once once we're a little bit past that that's definitely a layer 2 protocol I'd love to build in especially if we can't achieve a tow liquidity and Japan you know really frustrating in Japan at the moment the last token to be approved by the FSA was the cash token from the coin and I think that was November of 2017 so literally they've sat on their fingers for over an entire year just waiting for the government to give you a clarity on how to approach things and what I was told last time I went to Japan is I have to fill out like 85 pages of forms give it to an exchange have the exchange give it to the SRO every member of the SRO to vote on it and then and only then does the FSA get to look at it and go through the whole process again and they can kill it at any time so not looking good there for for exchange-listed tokens and it's just a damn shame so we'll do what we need to do and try as hard as we can to work within that model but just shows you them sometimes when bureaucrats get in the way they really start killing innovation and this is why I like developing world a bit more because they're definitely a lot more flexible when I went to olia they said hey what we're willing to work with you we'll do something with Uganda's the same way and usually in a few months you can get a law passed even Wyoming small jurisdiction look at how many great probe Bitcoin laws and pro cryptocurrency laws got passed and that's in the United States of America because here's a fYI ranchers hate bankers and so it's an easy sell that convinced them to do things peckers too much alright guys well it's been great two hours I got to get up early in the morning to get a F Denver wish me luck I'm going into the Lions Den and I hope good things come of it you've been great Thank You audience and I'll see you guys next time
