good morning Vietnam that was a special request for a fan hi everybody its Charles Hoskins in here broadcasting live from our favorite place warm and sunny Colorado got a new microphone this is the new Yeti X we step the red microphone which was the old Yeti so out with the old in with the new I hope you guys can hear me well let me turn down game just a little bit it's pretty cool mic action it's got a little flashing lights and this stuff although it's still not USB see what is up with that so today is May the 17th it is an interesting day it's a Sunday I try to do Sunday mas from time to time well you know during quarantine you guys have got a lot more charles time when i travel you get a little bit less and you know as we're building up the shelly you know things are kind of moving and in a steady drumbeat at the moment you know this was the first week that we had the Pioneer test net and next week is the real meat and potatoes at the Pioneer test then so the first week was about getting everybody on boarded getting them started with lots of exercises to do being able to establish a proper flow of communication a nice way for them to report issues and bugs and various misconceptions or misunderstandings or such things as they come up and next week is about actually making the blocks so hopefully we can actually see people successfully register stay cool get delegated to and make a block propagate that block throughout the entire network and then after all of that has been established it's just about opening it up to the rest of the general public and then once we get it opened up to the rest general public it'll be very short order basically wiring on the shell e-wallet in doing an end-to-end test net with Daedalus and the rest of the things and then it's balance check time ballast check is for you to verify that all the balances are right for the exchanges something to integrate against and for us a way of verifying that the hard for Combinator works the way that we think it works so that when we do it for realsies on the main net it as seamlessly as Byron reboot went and the rest of the endeavors have gone so things are things that are really moving in the right direction and it's a it's good to see things be predictable and on Rails and dates happen as we expect them to so this month is really the pioneer month and next month is really the month of you know getting the Shelley main users online and getting people where they need to go and it's gonna be a lot of fun to do the product update at the end of this month because we'll probably have a lot to say from the virtual summit to other such things you know it's also really exciting to see that all the things that we'd worked on for months or years in pieces be pulled together so quickly and without a hitch you know normally when you build things in a poly lithic architecture one piece after another piece when you wire those pieces together they don't fit right boeing learned this the hard way with the 787 and it caused a lot of delays for them but so far knock on wood all that wiring from the vrf on down seems to be working pretty well with a couple of sharp edges here and there that people have managed to resolve fairly quickly and it's just been a joy working with the pioneers and it's just been a joy working with the broader Cardinal community to actually really get this thing pushed through and released on time so Shelley is looking good guys it's looking really really good and I'm very happy about it what's really fun at this point and actually listening to the comments from trolls people from other projects you know they come in every six months and they have no idea what's going on and they say we're just a wallet or we haven't accomplished anything or we're a test net or we've never released anything it's getting almost comical at this point really comical and it's great for us because it means that the market is mispricing Ada and it means that the market doesn't quite understand our project yet so everybody's just going to be caught on their ass surprised and really get hit hard as a consequence of the launch of Shelley so there's going to be a little bit of a crypto ecosystem whiplash Shelley lash as a consequence of the launch I mean it's it's just crazy like today I saw an article from Queen Telegraph a supposed article covering all the latest and greatest proofs of steak from F to s offering to Algren to cosmos and of course cardano's missing we're always missing in these articles it's censorship at the at the worst or ignorance at the best so either they're stupid or they're purposely not doing their job so when we launch it's going to be really interesting to see how the market responds to that and it's going to be very interesting to see how the media as a whole responds to that one of the points of the virtual summit is to put an exclamation point at the launch of Shelia's as much your event as it is our event those who have waited so patiently for so long for the wait and launch of Shelley finally get to prove to the space that we deserve a seat at the table and we've done a really good job and we get to show how good of a job we've done we get to show the quality of the software get to show the capabilities the vision the roadmap and what people can do already so that's going to be a lot of fun and of course we're going to invite a lot of the media and of course we're gonna do our marketing reset at that point alongside the launch of the new Cardinal org website but it's nice to see a light at the end of the table I'm very excited about it very very fired up about it because I'm just damn tired about the current way things are going we just don't get enough respect and we just don't get enough accolades we put in the work we put in the time the community put in the work and put in the time there has never been in the history of cryptocurrency a test net as successful as the incentivized test that I mean literally you you have about half of the carto ecosystem participating there's I think 19,000 validating nodes there's over 1,200 registered stake pools hundreds actively making blocks for test net software test net software ok which was not the easiest software in the world to use let's be honest here that Russ code was very alpha and it was made for bleeding edge and despite the warts despite the fact that it took some time to mature and grow into something the community showed up work hard and they did their job you don't see that in many cryptocurrencies certainly in the top 15 or top 20 do we see that level of passion excitement enthusiasm and it's just incredible to me that it's ignored wholesale by large chunks of the industry so we could look at it as a problem or we could look at it as an opportunity I like to be a glass half-full kind of guy so let's say it's an opportunity and it's a great opportunity for us as an ecosystem and we will do what we need to do to grow and we'll do what we need to do to get our fair share and get to where we need to go the good news is that the engineering is getting done anybody who says otherwise is either ignorant or a liar and you can see it right there we're still number one for commits I believe crypto miso has still not updated their website unbelievable to me they're still pointing to a deprecated repository they refuse to update at the point to point to the other 10 repos that we've been actively contributing to to go to card Auto updates you can see I think we made over 2400 commits this this week alone and yet somehow someway we didn't make any commits because crypto miso is pointing to something that has no no maintenance it's a deprecated code base but you know that's just the way it is in this space people feel like they're in a position to tell everybody else what a product or a project is all about they claim that they're a trusted source of information when it's blatantly clear that they've failed in that mandate the community calls them out over Twitter they still don't update and they still have the audacity to judge other people then the people who don't like us point to that data sources Canon ignore everything else so we I will overcome that all right well anyway that is what it is and I don't really care anymore because I know I'm gonna win you know I it's inevitable we have done what we've needed to do and we're gonna get to a point where this project is going to take off and this project is really going to make a big impact it already has it's fundamentally changed the way that people do research in the space it's fundamentally change the conversation aetherium is taking formal methods very seriously there's companies like off chain Labs there's a whole methods group it can census none of this existed prior to carnival people recognize the value of what we were saying even if they decided not to give us credit it was extraordinary to me when Vitalik tweeted only cos perhaps has done or maybe Tasos interesting novel things dan Larimer is a thought leader in the space and of course the c-word can't be mentioned and then they asked him well Vitalik what would you create if he could do it all over again and then he basically describes Cardinal this is what we're up against in it at some point it just gets pretty absurd I remember in my own history when we were pushing for auditing the Federal Reserve System and we had one of the most sponsored bills in the history of Congress and the media refused to talk about auditing the Fed or when they brought it up they somehow said that an audit would disrupt or politicize the Fed preserve they literally took the talking points of the Chairman I mean well we said guys this organization is actually in charge of all the money in the entire United States and even the CIA the most sensitive of all places and the US government is subject to accountability oversight audits so why shouldn't the people who print our money be pretty simple concept and the vast majority of Congress seems to be on with this can we please talk about it 0 media coverage none nobody wanted to talk about it so it kind of feels like that to a certain extent in certain circles in the space and you know what we operate well in those circles we're used to it and we we certainly can outlast and survive anybody and sure as hell hasn't hurt our ability to grow as a project or the power of the community as a whole and I love all of you you're just great and I love that you show up for the AMAs I love it you come with great questions I love the conversations we have it's very meaningful and it's a family and we're all working together to try to create a better world so that's a lot of fun all right let's get to your questions huh hey Charles how's the garden growing very good I put in six raised beds two big beds and four small ones and those those beds we're going to grow some peppers and we're gonna grow a whole bunch of plants and unfortunately the first wave things we planted hail came and destroyed a lot of them it wasn't even in the forecast but that's Colorado for you you know just when you think everything is going to summer you get a hailstorm and you get some dents in the cars and you get some you get some damaged plants so better luck next time all right let's see here hey Charles I'm trying to write a book about car Don oh do you think it's a good time or a bad time considering you're rewriting the documentation launching marketing content push or if you're trying to write a book about it I'd highly encourage you to reach out to rod Alexander so rod Alexander at i/o hki oh you can all find his name spelling on our website IOH k dot io and we'd be happy to talk about it and we can be sure to give you as much information as we can to make that as easy of a process it's a lot of fun writing book and actually i i've been many times offered to write a book about my experiences in the space certainly books are being written about me there are three books being written about the history of aetherium and one or two chapters will be devoted to something I've done so it's a it's an interesting game hi Charles will I be able to stake when Shelley launches yes you'll be able to stake when the heart Fork begins so what will happen is that we're gonna launch the client and then we're going to wait about four weeks and do a heart Fork the reason why is that exchanges need time to rotate out or else what will happen is a they will get de listed while they they are getting their software updated so we talked to all the exchanges that have listed Ada and they said they need between four to six weeks we're going to do the balance checks slightly before we do the main net client and both of those will be basically the same sans bugs but it would be good given four weeks so as soon as that four weeks expires after the main net client is cut then the hard work begins which means we shift from the Shelley world the the Byron rules to the Shelley rules and at that point stick pools are running at that point delegations happening rewards are being paid and you're able to use it there's also other people like ledger who need to update euro you need to update and there's always latency there because when we finish a standardized then they need to build against that so you always have to wait a few weeks so so yes as soon as the as soon as the hard work begins you'll be able to do that does the hardware you were running effect node performance if you're referring to node performance with respect to stake pools generally speaking even at a rock pie should be able to make a block if you think about things such as sync time wallet restoration time if you have more CPU and memory and disk storage especially with faster disk with you'll be able to of course do these things faster unless we've done a really poor job optimizing algorithms so yeah if you have a core i9 with 64 gigabytes of RAM on a really powerful PCI Express based nvme solid-state hard drive then yeah you're gonna of course have a faster node experience than if you have a rock pi but both of these can use the system hi Charles would you be able to give a simplified version of how proof of steak works yeah sure there's a very easy way of thinking about proof of steak so both proof of work and proof of steak are attempting to achieve the same thing so all the old consensus algorithms the the rafts and the packs OSes and these BFT protocols basically they existed with an assumption that you have a static and federated system static and that you're not going to change your consensus set very often and federated in that that that set is basically a set of actors so five or seven or nine or eleven and it's not elastic so it doesn't go from like seven to thirty or something like that all right now this was built because at the end of the day you were talking about computers amongst known actors who basically own the hardware and they're building a distributed system to optimize you're going from one computer to many computers Byzantine resistance was added because maybe you're doing as things were hardware is unreliable in which case is it eaten by no fault of its own gives you wrong answers and the system needs to be self-correcting you don't want to halt as a consequence of a bit being flipped or because you're actually networking with outside parties but you still have a situation where the system is for the most part static and federated now we're moving to a dynamic and decentralized system dynamic in that lots of people can open a join and and you don't know how big that sets going to be and and basically anybody can play you don't need permission to play inside the system so this requires a new class of protocols and the first of its kind was proof of work and then proof of state was invented thereafter the big difference is that you need some sort of resource to determine participation and so in the case of proof of work your resources hash rate in the case of proof of stake your resources ada now that resource then you can make decisions about who gets to advance the system so basically you can think of it this way you have your system and state a so whatever today's state is so the current set of all the values and then you run it and then a lot of people propose things they say okay I want to send this amount to Bob and I want to send this amount to Eve and so forth and those are called pending transactions and they go and sit in the memory pool and they just wait for somebody to bunch all of them together make a block and then advance the network to the next state the state B okay well what proof of work and proof of stake is all about is it's a decision mechanism to decide who gets the right to bundle all of those things that are sitting in the memory pool together and advance the system from one state to the next state then that candidate is broadcasted throughout the network and if they follow the rules all the validating nodes all the full nodes in the system can look at that and say yeah that looks good I accept that block so basically there is a select who's going to do it do it and then check the work of the person who does it the only major difference between proof of stake and proof of work is that in proof of work the selection phase is basically a lottery system determined by hash rate so you've basically a lot of people are buying tickets all their mining capacities how many tickets per second they can buy so you have a Giga hashing at a billion tickets per second pedda hash etc etc and basically at some point you find that lucky ticket that lucky hash that is a winner and then that if you're fast enough can be used to go ahead and advance the system you get the right to do that now if two people roughly at the same time get winning tickets then you actually have a fight between them and then the first person to have somebody build a block on top of their chain is the winner and then the other one actually gets discarded that's called an orphan block now with proof of stake what we do is and we say instead of using hashes to do this we say okay we're just going to synthetically let people win so if you have 25% of the ada and circulation 25% of the time on average you'll have a chance to win and with a delegation system can take that and give that chance to win to a state pool operator on your behalf and then they go and participate and but the only way you get paid is by actually making the block this is one of the reasons why it's not right to call proof of stake like interest or a dividend or something like that because with interest and dividend you have a legal right to a payment just by holding an asset with stake you don't you actually have to do something you have to either do it yourself or you have to entrust somebody to do it on your behalf and they actually have to go and do that and what they're doing is actually real utility to for the network because if these stake poles didn't exist well then the network couldn't advance so the network as a whole is paying people to do something in the only way they can do something is by participating in the synthetic lottery effectively and actually then constructing the block and advancing it so it's a pretty clever system because you achieve open participation and you'll achieve decentralisation but unlike Bitcoin because you're not spending any electricity on that synthetic lottery basically you have a constant amount of power that's being used very very small amount in our case about ten kilowatts if we had a thousand state pools and they were all running Rock PI's so what does that mean like for the power of a large home you can run a global scale financial system whereas a Bitcoin the problem is that as the cost of energy goes up except well excuse me the hash rate goes up and the value of Bitcoin goes up you know you're going to use more and more and more electricity to stay competitive for those same amount of coins so as a consequence there's no incentive to reduce power consumption in the system if the system becomes more valuable it's quite the opposite anytime the value goes up you will spend more and more electricity to acquire that value so this is what's made Bitcoin go from the power of One Laptop to the power of an entire country like Switzerland and if it continues to grow like to a trillion dollar market cap it will consume more electricity than Canada it'll consume more electricity than Argentina very large countries so it does give you a sense of how problematic this will be of iron mentally speaking and all of that is tone with proof of stake as with all things you talk about trade-offs and the trade-offs are that you have an endogenous resource versus an external resource and in an exogenous resource so they have different trust models and a misogynist resource is a resource outside of the system and endogenous resources of the resource within the system okay so a resource outside of the system means that you are trusting a process that lives outside of your protocol to make the protocols secure so you are relying on mining Hardware existing people using that mining hardware and for a sufficient amount of it to be around that it would be quite expensive for the system to be hacked in the case of an endogenous resource you're saying that's something within the system a resource that exists within the system is what gives the system security so the more expensive that resource happens to be and the more plentifully distributed that resource happens to be then the less chance you have of fraud and abuse of the system or damage to the system so you have a direct alignment with an endogenous resource to the financial incentives of the system and security in health of the system whereas you do not have a direct alignment with an exogenous resource because that mining capacity could be used for any proof-of-work coin that shares that same hash power this is a big difference between the systems even if there was an 8 a classic the ADA and ADA regular everyday Cardno cannot be used to secure ADA classic so whatever value of one system can't be reused to the other system but if you had a Bitcoin in a Bitcoin cash situation because they both share the same consensus algorithm a miner chooses to either mine chain a or chain B here's the problem with that if chain a and chain B have roughly the same hash rate and the same value the miners of one of these chains actually have an incentive to collude and destroy a chain and then move all hash power over to the other chain because they can maximize profit you can't dilute your resources if you mind and be at the same time you can only split your resources 50/50 so you'll make roughly the same amount of money but if you destroy one of the coins you can use financial products like short selling and derivatives these types of things to make windfall money as it's in free fall because it becomes unusable and it's broken and then when it's destroyed you just move all your hash power over to the other system and you would make the same amount of money if you mind a all the time but you get to keep all the value of destroying a that's the problem with proof-of-work is it's a winner-takes-all type of system and it's very mercenary and so if you're defending your city with mercenaries you have to be very careful because those mercenaries may have an incentive to turn on your city and Sackett yeah if someone pays them more if they realize that they can get away with that whereas an endogenous resources like defending your city with your own people you know if they turn on the city they're killing their kids they're killing their family so that's really the big difference philosophically between these two things but they approve of stake to work in principle and synthesize all the security properties of proof of work that a super super super hard and that's why we've had to spend years and years of research to understand can we do this synchronous or asynchronous or partially synchronous can we get adaptive security can we bootstrap from Genesis the rule there were a lot of properties that proved work gets for free as a consequence of its design that are really hard to emulate with proof of stake in a provably secure way so that's why we had to write a lot of papers and spend years thinking about it hi Charles what is your current relationship with avital akin and in your opinion what is the reason for him not to ever mention Cardinal I don't really have a relationship with italic we never talk we barely interact with each other maybe once every year or two years at some event hey hey that's about it and he certainly doesn't talk about our project except for to criticize our papers usually in a public medium like Reddit or Twitter but never in a scientific medium where we can certainly have a discussion we wish him well and you know the space is certainly large enough for both of us and I hope that he has a good time with etc' makes use me at the etherium too hi Charles do you expect a depression because of the lockdown situation if so can what can we expect from the blockchain industry are they already offer a viable alternative to the failing fiat system I do anticipate that there's a very high probability of depression as a direct consequence of these lock downs this is a classic case of where something was done as a knee-jerk reaction in the short term because we did not have complete information and we decided to err on the side of caution that has been taken heavily politicized and the goal posts have been moved in my own country the whole reason for the shutdown was so that the medical system could catch up we could get our PPE supply chains in order we'd have a little bit of time to try to get better therapeutics and that we could orient ourselves properly so that when we reopened we could properly social distance and wear masks and these types of things those were the goal posts that's that's where we started and it was a reasonably you know one or two month endeavor understanding that it had profound economic consequences literally it would wipe out hundreds of thousands of small businesses and probably double or triple the unemployment rate for at least a year but it was a risk we took because we didn't know enough now moving forward the goal posts have been changed in the case of Los Angeles - we may not open up until we have a cure we don't have a cure for HIV we don't have a cure for the common cold we don't have a cure for any of the other coronaviruses we don't have a cure for influenza but apparently that's now the goal post and they've said there's at least three more months of lockdown the longer we do this in an effect society with a second virus we'll call it the quarantine virus and it has very real consequences on every single person first it destroys your constitutional rights and freedoms your right to assembly or freedom of religion your right of expression your right to commerce second its instituting this is a spy' state it's apparently already K for Google and Apple to begin tracking and tracing people on their phones and reporting that information to the government it also allows the government to decide which businesses are essential and not essential apparently and state of Colorado if you're a marijuana dispensary or you sell pornography you're essential if you're a church or not so how you can figure that one out I can't but all right and then it also leads to profound death the case of suicides increased by about one percent for every percent increase in unemployment that's a well-known statistic and our unemployment rate has gone from about four five percent to almost twenty percent in some places fifteen percent increase in suicide rate translates to at least 15,000 additional deaths perhaps more just in the United States I destroys quality of life as well because what those suicides are overwhelmingly represented by people under the age of 40 who many of which have small children and have many people deeply reliant on them so all those families have devastation that takes some cases decades if not ever to recover from then you talk about all the people who can't get elective procedures 34 have already died in Toronto that's one place they've tracked it extrapolating across the entire United States it's hundreds if not thousands of people who will die as a consequence of elective becoming much more so this recent statistic I read said over 80,000 cancers will go undiagnosed as a consequence of this quarantine it's important to also point out that the quarantines are bankrupting our healthcare system because no one's allowed to perform non-elective it no one's allowed to perform elective procedures doctors nurses nurse practitioners are being laid off in mass hospitals are going out of business time of a global pandemic where you would expect people be working overtime the healthcare systems being crushed in addition to that many people in the United Nations and the World Food Program in other places that track famine believe that because of the economic devastation of the quarantine virus shutting down the world 265 million people will be pushed into acute hunger of which 1 to 2 percent will at least die of hunger starve to death the men go first usually then the women then the children because no one's there to take care of them that translates to 2.6 million to 5 million people will die of starvation within the next twelve months because of the economic depression that has been pushed upon the world to show the colossal mismanagement of the government agencies in the United States we are destroying food we are allowing millions of sheep chickens pigs and other things to just basically be butchered and no meat processed so they just rot silo's full of agricultural goods are rotting as well so the markets aren't functioning normally because of this and despite that millions of people will now starve to death as a direct consequence don't believe me read the New York Times if you're on that political persuasion so know these people who want to end these lockdowns don't want to get a haircut they don't want to just go get a beer they understand the profound social trauma economic trauma and death the quarantine virus will cause meanwhile on the science side we've discovered with all available data and the antibody test across many places a meta-analysis of them that the case fatality rates probably about somewhere around 0.34% and that's probably going to be lower once we actually start accounting for a lot of things and dragging more data and as of next year and that is overwhelmingly represented amongst people who have many comorbidities overwhelmingly represented amongst people who are morbidly obese or old now for a long time medicine has been able to deal with people who are very vulnerable to diseases there's at least one person who has had a cancer and had to have their immune system destroyed bone marrow transplant who said boy somebody coughs on me I'm gonna have a really bad time they self isolate we don't shut all of society down to protect them we tell them that the burden is on their shoulders because we understand the socio-economic realities of shutting all society down despite that apparently people claim that they follow science are saying that we're gonna have quarantine and shutdowns where you're allowed to go on wet sand but not dry sand you can't go outside you have to stay inside two-thirds of people in New York who have coronavirus caught it during the quarantine indoors you don't really see you're not really gonna catch this in a park with sunlight far away from people but you can go ahead and kick Tom Brady out of a park he's not allowed to exercise by himself alone in the park it's insanity it's absolute insanity and the quarantine virus will kill far far far far more people than any coronavirus ever will furthermore we will never get rid of corona virus now ever it is mutated it is in the wild too many people have gotten just like the common flu and influenza there will be new strains every year and we for the rest of time until medicine evolves much much beyond where it's at we'll have a double flu season a corona season and an influenza season just there even if we develop a vaccine and we start distributing that vaccine there's over 30 strains of corona virus floating around flattening the curve will do absolutely nothing to mitigate death it prevents people from dying as a consequence of lack of medical care so the whole point was to avoid hospitals from getting overrun and a doctor in the ICU having to make the worst decision of their life of which patient do I give the ventilator to accepting that the other ones going to die we are under capacity to the point that we are laying physicians off so that decision doesn't have to be made the curve will be dragged out longer but the same amount of people will probably get coronavirus with these quarantine stay at home policies than if we didn't have them and before anybody quotes the countries and places that didn't quarantine for example Sweden and say oh look how terrible it is they have far more cases than their nearest neighbor or remind you that if you extrapolate Sweden's population to Italy's population there's 10 million people in Sweden 60 million people in Italy there's still about 10,000 people less who would have died in Sweden than Italy but then you say oh well that doesn't count because Italy is a totally different country compare them to Norway which is a totally different country from Sweden and if you look at Sweden and you discount the route in homes and the nursing homes the places where people are most vulnerable or they did have bad policies and they didn't shut them down and quarantine them they'd actually converge to Germany and Netherlands and other countries so this is just a great example of how people live was data it's a great example of how propaganda spreads and it's a great example of how bad policy kills people and the very same people who in the Soviet Union felt that they could centrally plan an economy I and decide who gets food and who doesn't get food are now added again thinking that this time will be different and I will remind everybody that during the 20th century 100 million people starve to death in the Soviet Union and tens of millions were gulag we will converge to that again in some form or capacity if we're not so careful with this quarantine virus and the civil liberties that we lose the rights we lose the social graces that we lose as a consequence of this quarantine will not come back instantly the minute that the quarantines end politicians never give power back government never gives power back unless the people take it back from the government and the media has been completely complicit in it I am disgusted absolutely disgusted with all of this and I'm really tired of every single time that I speak out it in this particular topic I'm called racist a Nazi or I just want to get my hair cut or I want to go get a beer or something like that too to get through it my life is great I live on a 50 acre farm I have no problems in the world I could live in quarantine for 10 years and it'd have very little impact on me my lifestyle or the things going on but I do see a lot more homeless people I do know a lot of people have lost their livelihood their business New York City has gone from 20,000 restaurants the probably less than 10,000 after this is all said and done the vast majority of those are small businesses owned by minorities all of them completely wiped out and no it's not a solution to just institute universal basic income socialize the entire medical system and Institute a welfare state there's dignity and work and there's dignity and freedom and to rob us of this and then that replacing with total government control the factors of production is the better way of going things this is just this is just the most inhuman of things I've seen and we're making people suffer when the science clearly says we should not so yeah I think it's gonna have profound consequences and it's already having consequences it's hurting the entire world and there's no scientific reason to hurt the entire world I certainly do feel bad about the people who've died coronavirus millions of people have died of malaria millions of people have died of other diseases as well it's called being human we're frail and fragile and we can die from crazy things from being hidden by meteorite fragments to getting Ebola it happens and we as a collective society we try to do better we try to protect the vulnerable but we do not use the fact that something can harm somebody as an excuse to rob people of their freedom and their liberty and to rob people of their ability to self-govern and for society to function as it was it's it's just morally wrong yeah what's the solution that pretty simple you just open up you do what Sweden did use common sense you socially distance you wear masks it reduces the infection rate people are more careful you accept that you're gonna have a pretty constant stream of people getting it there's some seasonality in this as we've seen from India and Africa data I in you work on better therapeutics from death severe is a great platform when you see that treating with zinc and vitamin D certainly helps and we will have a vaccine for some strains of this and we give that vaccine to the most vulnerable people and then we move on with our lives just like we moved on with our lives with influenza every year influenza kills half a million people if not more in society works just fine so yes we have to accept we have another one here and it may kill a million people every single year it is a tragedy and good research in good science and slight improvements here and there can make those numbers go down but you get back to work destroying the world economy all that's going to do is kill ten times or hundred times as many people but those people live in India and those people live in Africa and those people live in Southeast Asia and apparently the media thinks it's okay to let them die because apparently they don't matter their skin colors not the right color or they were just lost a geographic Lottery according to them so let's ignore them and meanwhile they died in the most horrific ways possible violent deaths or deaths from hunger that is not a good alternative and it is fundamentally immoral and we know it's coming people are shouting it at the rooftops that when you destroy the world economy this happens it happened at the back of the world wars it happened during the Great Depression it's happened during every world crisis that has pushed global unemployment up and this is no different and as being man-made just we're just doing it of our own volition crying science science science even when the science is faulty what would you recommend for a pledge for a test net pool operator without much fun so in general the pledge mechanism we're going to discuss next week Duncan and Lars and Kevin are gonna go on the card oh no effect and we're gonna have a discussion about this and so I'm not gonna front run that conversation outside of saying that for those who are not quite able to meet a reasonable pledge for a profitable operation there will be an ability for small pool operators to merge together and run a consolidated pool so Duncan will discuss that and it's certainly something that we are working very hard with the communities set properly it's one of the powers of having super powers of having the Pioneer test net is that we can discuss all of these things with the pioneers and soon-to-be the entire state pool set and we can actually measure and understand what are the real-life consequences and business consequences of particular parameterizations so and there are things that are very meaningful to you if you're running a business a state pool that go above and beyond just the pledge mechanic for example no one can see you in Daedalus your desirability is too low you won't care too much about the pledge because even if you were a great pool and very profitable to delegate to no one will come it's the equivalent of having a business with no visibility nobody from the road knows you're there so no one goes there so obviously you need to mark it a little bit right so there's a lot of discussion there and these are businesses that it's a new business model and there you go [Music] how close are we to meeting the roadmap deadlines I think this year we're gonna complete what we sought out to do for Cardinal I'm very confident of that if you look at Chile go go to Volterra all of them are shaping up in a way that we can make meaningful and significant contributions to those areas and as for bacio of the things that were necessary to do they've been done we had to pick a scalability approach and we know how to do that when we know how to introduce that with competition and leveraging the stateful model that we have so from a certain respect there's a very high probability we'll be able to get through that tie roadmap that said you know it's moving target there's always a million more things you could do and that was the point of the Treasury system to create a funding mechanism to allow us to do the next thing so if we're able to bootstrap the next five years off of the prior five years and be able to compete in a much higher level and go give Bitcoin and the rest of the gang a run for its money that I feel that it's mission accomplished accomplished so yeah it's a it's certainly a great thing we will do a closing report I'm treating this almost like a DARPA project and so we're gonna discuss and exhaustively all the accomplishments the things we've done the research that was done the code that was written the lessons learned and so forth and that'll be a very comprehensive piece of work that will give to the community clearly articulating what was Bill pound-for-pound dollar for dollar more code more values been delivered for Cardno than frankly any other project in the space it'sit's unbelievably vast the scale which things had been done it wasn't a very profitable project for me to work on we went well over budget and that came out of my pocket but you know those things happen you know I love seeing these questions hi Charles can you give a quick explanation the difference between Ada and Tasos I've done it before refer to those you know everybody wants fast quick answers and I answer it over and over and over again and people just keep asking the same question we're very different systems at the surface level there seem to be similarities but actually when you go into it there are big differences there's fundamental differences in the way the consensus algorithms work or Boris is a very different protocol than there's the accounting model is different they use in aetherium style account model accounts and we use extended UTX oh so it looks a lot more like bitcoins accounting mechanism smart contract languages are very distinctly different our approaches to governance are very distinctly different we're embracing an off chain blockchain and with some Unchained components whereas their ours are completely built into the system which creates a bit more of a monolith and makes it harder to upgrade so there's a there's a lot of philosophical technological and engineering differences between the two projects despite the fact that they're both using functional programming languages and that we're trying to achieve somewhat similar goals and third certain things crypto as please explain how ADA is quantum decryption proof at the moment card on o is not quantum resistant so quantum computers are a different mode of computation they use a kind of different physics and different science and what they allow you to do is find shortcuts to reduce problems that are super hard in classical computers to problems that are solvable so it's like a like an NP reduction you know you take this thing like crypto for example so how public key crypto works is that you have a really hard math problem that allows you to basically construct a public piece of information that everybody can see and then you keep a private piece of information which is the trapdoor and to discover that trapdoor and that really hard thing the only way you could do so is either know it already so you created it yourself so it's your secret key or solve very hard problem that is known to be very hard or we suspect it to be very hard well it turns out that quantum computers are really good at finding shortcuts through magics of special algorithms like Shor's algorithm and so forth and they allow you to discover that piece of information without having to tackle that very hard problem in the traditional way so it is really scary because how we've constructed crypto kind of relies on those those foundations and when you remove these very hard problems and you make them solvable then then all of a sudden with a quantum computer you could start breaking encryption so the good news is is a whole class of algorithms that are quantum resistant like hash based crypto and lattice based crypto and learning with err super singular asaji knees and so forth and there's tons of mathematical primitives that are believed to be quantum resistant or they just kind of make back of the napkin sense for that now we could introduce those primitives into Cardno at any time and we've even built a bespoke one using X MSS with a kes with Peter Schwab a now the problem is that those algorithms carry trade-offs generally speaking they're not optimized there is significantly more resource intensive so the keys are much larger it's harder to verify them and they rely on primitives that are not as well understood and as a consequence they could potentially not be secure there could be vectors of attack whereas the primitives of elliptic curve cryptography so you never get something for nothing you always have a trade-off now just the public key crypto is not enough you also have to model your way you generate random numbers and you have to model the operation of your system from perspective what's called Quantum adversary that modeling effort is underway and we have written some papers on it and we are looking at things like potentially doing a post quantum vrf is how we generate random numbers but getting all these things done in a way that mitigates their trade-offs and enhances their security is an exceedingly difficult project but it's not necessary in the short term like Basho so what we'll do with the renewal when we ask for it is include a quantum research agenda so that cardano's end-to-end quantum resistant and we'll make sure that with all those papers getting written the testing gets done and since we're doing quantum stuff we'll try to introduce not only post quantum crypto antim crypto so post quantum crypto is crypto that helps you defeat the existence of quantum computers quantum crypto uses some of this newfound weird stuff in the quantum world to do crypto better like for example we wrote a paper called one-shot signatures which means it's almost like the the Mission Impossible the signature self-destructs after you read it so you can only use it once and by the laws of physics so there's a really cool stuff that we can you can push down the pipe and it's not necessary today but it will be necessary in the 10 to 20 year time horizon if we look at the evolution of quantum computers so it is certainly something that we should as an ecosystem start planning for and gracefully add in once we've annihilated as many trade offs as we can the good news is we can piggyback on work that the US government is doing and other governments are doing because they have a lot of Secrets they'd like to keep and they're just as vulnerable to those secrets being revealed if crypto doesn't work as we are so some of the world's foremost engineers and intelligence agencies and Defense Department people are doing a lot of work on algorithms and fundamental research to try to get proper protocols and the good news is most of this work is in the open domain it's open source so we can borrow that and use it well I which case submit smart contracts for patent no we never pursue patents at I which can well you know Leah vrf is a VR f is a VR F there's plenty of around al grant has one we have one chain-link does stuff uh it's not necessarily about well hey you know can you create the optimal vrf it's more of situation is this good for what we want but is it secure do we does it work and is it performant these are the things that you look at look at and then of course there's uh there's plenty of things that can be done to enhance VRS like hybridize them with V DFS and other cool things and that's part of our research agenda for optimizing or borås but at the moment we're very happy with the way we generate random numbers and there's no real need to go shopping we have what we need for Shelley and for the foreseeable future hi Charles what happened the previous CTO of Iowa HK the previous CTO of AI which K was me I was both CTO and CEO and I hired someone much smarter than me Romain and he's been gradually getting into getting into all the day-to-day stuff we've had a few directors of engineering and you know we've had various people on a product side that haven't quite worked out as well as we hoped but there's never been another CTO we were always gonna hire one but it was one of those things like once we finish le will bring it in a CTO and then at some point I was like what am i doing this is crazy let's let's have a CTO so I'm very happy Romain he's here and he's doing a phenomenal job he's already had a big impact you should can't to give cardano's some market visibility what exactly would I be selling head shark tank and I'm richer than most of him pivotal is a software Anthony and I don't know the name of the company that makes it but yeah we're using that with our PR from April 6 will prison be open source yes well existing SSI software be interoperable with prism on card ah no I'd like the hope that did czar I'd like to hope that did czar portable unfortunately the did standard is is a little screwy so reading a careful reading of the dude standard the cryptographic assets of the did are in the did document not in the did itself yes so ideally how would you like to embed these on a blockchain is that you'd like to have a did associated with the public key and then signed with the corresponding private key along with the hash of the dead body the document of course you you remove the public heats you'd separate the crypto into a header in a body this type of a thing so you'd like to be able to have that as a logical unit that you would embed in the blockchain but that's not the standard for dead and it's not good to put the dead document on the chain because the did document will contain PII so there's gonna have to be some sort of management of modifying the did standard a bit to make it blockchain friendly also there's nothing in the dead standard about aliasing and so dudes aren't particularly useful if they're just numbers you'd like be able to connect them to a name at some point so we're right now working on a way of modifying that a little bit so that it's more palatable and useful for smart contracts and for people in practice and that we can also add an aliasing system on so you could say things like send ADA to Bob or something like that it's a fundamental component but yeah we'll do that that said most of the dead standard seems to be preservable and once people understand our interpretation of it it should be pretty to reassemble it once the data is there into something that could be ported to hyper ledger into your sovereign but it's a bear of a problem and you know I commend Menace poorni and Chris Allen and the rest of the people at the w3c for trying to create something it's one of those things where they they set reasonable goal posts but because they were reasonable there's always a lot of stuff missing and it doesn't natively port so well watching you have to work at it bmw m3 or Mercedes c63 neither I despised German cars except for well it's not completely true so I do have technically an Audi is there's a story behind it so I've always had American my first car was a Ford and I went over the GM I have Cadillacs and I love Cadillacs I love GM trucks I got a Chevy truck and a GM truck and I did some consulting work and they said hey we could also sweeten the deal a little bit and I said okay how and they said we'll throw a Lamborghini and I said well I kinda always like Lamborghinis fine I'll take it so I took a Lamborghini Huracan LP 610 2017 Spyder it's a car I put 10,000 miles on it so the Huracan is actually basically like Italian version of the Audi r8 and and I do drive that and it's a great car you know the oil changes your $2,000 and you would not believe how expensive it is to fix a tire and of course they're filled with nitrogen and so you can't just go to any shop but it is a lot of fun driver I really do enjoy it and I have to commend Lamborghini for building something that can be a daily driver but anyway I I don't like mercedes-benz very much and I've never been a big BMW fan I think Cadillac makes a significantly better product the technology is better it's easier to use the oil changes are cheap I take my ct-6 into the GM dealership they can change my oil for forty dollars you cannot do that with an AMG 63 you just can't and it's way too expensive maintenance on those things and by the way ct-6 550 horsepower twin-turbo v8 with a 10 speed transmission it drives itself - and it's got a 34 speaker Bose sound system how about that he had $2,000 oil change Cheryl's alleged cult sticking will be integrated a launch of Shelly yeah we're gonna get all the firmware update there so that'll be cold staking and hopefully multi-sig with the ledger as well we're working with vacuum labs for that now I'm gonna start getting a bit more involved on the product side there come June and actually the other thing we're really looking into is how do we read the phyto u2f a standard so that we can get a much better and more secure user experience for Daedalus so one of the things I'm very keen to do you have these things called UB keys that's a final you to FA device I don't have one on me right now maybe I have one right here I haven't a safe so I'll have to grab it later but alright we have these things called UB keys and if you go to you if just googled Yubikey y ubi ke y UB keys are little devices and they have tons of crypto capabilities they're like the Swiss Army knife of crypto and they're really good for three things one they're good for access control so basically when you want to get into a threshold enter a website you can use a password but a lot of cases two-factor authentication you would use a UB key as well like for Google you can do this and many other websites like LastPass you can do this and basically in addition the password you have to have the physical device plug it in push a button and then it gives you access to that site so access control second it can store a cryptographic assets like passwords so one of the things we could do is say all right for Daedalus instead of having spending password you use your UV key as the spending password so when you go to send a transaction you have to plug the device in and push a button to send the transaction so you never have to remember a password you just use a physical device and then three we're looking into the u2 fa photo stuff or account recovery so be really nice if you had the wallet recovery phrase on the Yubikey or some device like that you plug it into the and you recover from that with a pin code yeah seven digit a six digit PIN code or something like that as opposed to try and remember 12 keywords and what's nice about this is that there's all kinds of stuff you can do with ping codes where you can securely erase if they entered it like wrong 20 times or make it really hard to enter it more than a few times incorrectly and being able to cover from Yubikey you have a great wallet recovery experience from a cold boot you can just plug the key in click a button enter the pin code then boom the wallet is restored so we're kind of exploring that standard and you know what we might do is create a hardware Center within Daedalus because right now we're building a ledger Center in a treasure Center but it'd be nice to take one step out and say okay any u2f a device you can plug that in and we can write something so you can do access control recovery password a repair count recovery and I'm spending password from that and of course once we have that all figured out we can import that experience into the mobile side as well so that's one thing we think will make it much much easier to use Daedalus securely and help out everybody now this won't replace the need for writing your wallet recovery phrase down and there should be a secure way of doing that you know probably what we'll do is include it like with the paper wallet generator you print out a piece of paper and it has the slots so you can write it down twice on it fold it and put it in a safe or something like that another option is if you have a PGP key that's stored securely take those key words and encrypt them and send them in an email to yourself so if your email gets compromised you have an encrypted backup no one's gonna break that if if along your PGP keys secure I and you know as long as you have access to that the email will store that I've been known to do that from time to time so there's a lot of ways to securely store a recovery phrase and Charles Morgan will do some content on that we've been trying to kick them into this but we've been so busy with the audits if you lose the Yubikey so in general nothing because in all three cases it's easier shielded so very difficult to extract or it requires the stuff that's sitting on your computer however it does create problems for you because if you lose that key then you're then you're gonna have to restore the wallet to be able to use it so you can either create a second key and store that in a safe or you can write your your wallet recovery phrase down and then just delete the wallet restore the wallet from the role of recovery phrase so if we do this then we should be able to create a lot of content show people how to use it securely yeah CIA is not just the whole thing so you see confidentiality integrity and availability there's also there's also Cena a confidentiality integrity non repudiation and authentication it's another way of looking at it as well and there's those the problem is that the more things that you do to make this is the more precise your right you tend to lose availability so it's becomes increasingly more difficult for mainstream users to use the system appropriately so we've seen major improvements in security usability trade-offs by using biometrics and cell phones with two-factor authentication like authy or Google Authenticator or Microsoft Authenticator but it's still we got a long way to go yeah what Leger Nando axe Tobin Daedalus well I've been looking into whether legio a ledger nano axe is a phyto compliant device so if it is then we conceivably could use the same approach that we use with the Yubikey for access control and I suspect it there's something that could be done there yes it Connor the answer to your question is yes card out is well more than secure enough with Prowse rather than Genesis one of the reasons why we chose that trade-off is that or horse is still not a completely finalized protocol it took an enormous amount of time to kind of come up with a reasonable variant of Cardinal that we felt could be brought to a mainstream product and that's Prowse what Genesis gives you is it gives you a little bit more like Bitcoin security principle but remember when we're starting the hybrid phase there's the or horse BFT cluster so you already have like a collection of trusted actors that are acting as training wheels as a network is launching what Prowse Genesis the big difference is you don't need a checkpoint to completely bootstrap from Genesis trust lessly you just need the original distribution so given that we already have that cradle mechanism it's like the Genesis doesn't really give you much security but moving forward Genesis definitely will especially as network gets older so we'd like to para not only Genesis but like the work we're doing with spikes to deal with spikes of dishonest majority which makes Genesis even more useful so what's happening is that all the research is converging Prowse will come out it's good enough to run the network indefinitely and it's not going to have any problems but then there's gonna be a second wave of things we do before the Year closes out to bundle in some other ideas perhaps some ideas from spikes Kronos and Genesis to finish off or Bors so so overall I you know it was just one of those how long is a piece of string things and Kraus is well moored enough to run the entire system and the difference between Prowse and Genesis is not significant the distance the difference between classic and Prowse is very significant they use different random number generation techniques they have adaptive security in one case whereas the other does not Kraus and Genesis is more of a chain selection role where there's a clever way of doing chain selection that gives you the ability to bootstrap from Genesis but in practice you can replicate this with a checkpoint and given that we're going to have that cradle mechanism right at launch in the hybrid mode it's effectively the same thing so you're not really losing anything there and our goal was to get Shelley to market as quickly as possible so we didn't think it was prudent to wait another 2 or 4 weeks to get Genesis rule and given that we're gonna change the protocol again in three to six months how have the audits been going the audits are done then a foundation is negotiating the next wave of audits but the route and I'm beyond it's done and we cleared it and that's in the forum and read it if you guys want to see it planning for the sumit mic is going quite well we're having a great time with that you know we're gonna make a lot of announcements at the end of the month about the date you had these things we have the software selected and we have five or six work streams special guests invited and everybody's writing their presentations and content it's it's caught along pretty well oh good I don't know Fuji u2f is supported and fidos yeah so now that was my suspicion as well about the legend nano acts it's a programmable device I'm Kaylen long launching her crypto bank she's been working on that for a long time and I've been checking in every few months and say hey how's that going I'm real proud of the work she's done and her founders have done they really roll the boulder uphill they had to change the laws and a state deal with the Federal Reserve there was court cases it was one of those stories you got to read a book about one of these days and when and there will be a book written about it I think Kalin's one of the best female entrepreneurs in our space you know probably one of the best entrepreneurs in our space period all people included she's an inspiration and she's a tough tough woman really tough grew up during the wallstreet era and had to deal with a very very male-dominated wall street in the 90s and and so forth and that was not exactly the friendliest place to be a woman it was it was a special culture like a wolf of Wall Street type of culture but despite that managed to overcome all of that and succeed have a phenomenal career become a great leader and launch one of the most innovative banks in all of banking across the entire world and do so in a way that the government is forced to accept it despite the fact that they don't like it and it creates a big opening for us as an industry and potentially could solve a lot of custody issues that were running into for a variety of assets so she's one of the best and were a better space because she's here and it's just a better industry because of the tireless work that that they've been doing in Wyoming and I have an enormous amount of respect for her I will confer not Jack Dorsey or Steve Wozniak yet the virtual cement in fact I think the person who's coming is far more meaningful and his work has been far more impactful on us all than either of them and that's not to say that Jack and Steve didn't do impactful things I mean Twitter Twitter and Apple are pretty good companies but this particular person did more and that and those kind of and and and this work has been much more meaningful but won't tell you who it is do you have any inkling that Adam back is Satoshi of all the Satoshi candidates Adam back is actually the one who fits the profile as I've repeatedly said somebody educated the British education system he meets the educational band the programming experience band the culture and personality it kind of talks like him the grammar is about the same and it's probably not a coincidence that he would be working at a company like block stream I would be not shocked if Adam back was Satoshi Nakamoto I would not be shocked at all in fact I'd say he was very likely candidate for that to be the case you know but again it's it's not particularly important who's Satoshi and Adam himself has repeatedly said that what does I oh geez relationship with IBM we have great relationship we collaborate with IBM Research on the horizons 2020 privilege grant that we got for software update and we all the time talked to their group and we are joining the hyper ledger group and we'll pull some of our product lines into hyper ledger so we we talked to them through that organization as well it's Steve Jobs back from the dead at the virtual summit you know I never got to meet Steve Jobs I've met everybody healing must gone down and I never got to meet Steve and I always was sad about that some people they just go before their time and the world would be a better place at Steve live just a few more years to to take the next wave of innovation for Apple it's real sad that he went that said you know things move on and you just have to find ways to get things where they need to go without them one coinbase anything I can't tell you that any thoughts on staking coin being considered securities by the SEC I don't believe so they're clearly not I mean you have a virtual resource and that virtual resource entitles you to do something but you have to do that thing to profit and that thing provides material value and benefit to the entire network you can't say the fact that this is the only way that people can spend their money is by you doing your job that your job is not meaningful and necessary and you don't get paid if you don't do the job that is not a bond that is not interest and you're not entitled to any payment your performance is what results in payment so that certainly doesn't make it as security in the fact that the asset also has meaningful real utility from the gas model which the SEC seems to think does for a theorems case certainly provide real non security value I just can't see proof of State natively making something as security but you know there's a facts and circumstances of course that exists and these are on a case-by-case basis with each ecosystem Sheryl's any update on the card on a Wikipedia I know some people in the community been working on it and they've been trying their best the editors have still been exceedingly difficult I mean they're saying things like Bloomberg is not a legitimate source and Forbes is not a legitimate source I mean it's Danny R comical at this point the things that have Wikipedia just to give you an example okay just an example I bought legends of valor it's a video game I bought it for modest sum of money it has a Wikipedia page okay a video game from 1992 that I'm willing to wager at any given time less than five people in the world are playing and probably less than a hundred thousand people even know about okay has a Wikipedia page but Cardno a project that's worth 1.3 billion dollars hundreds of thousands of people are using know about are engaged in millions of dollars of transactions every day 60 plus research papers behind huge company behind that operates in more than 40 countries that is not novel enough to have a page now legends well are has a a page the guy who owns legends of mälar is not novel enough to have a page they're fighting to take a town in fact in fact they the editors at Wikipedia were even trying to say I wasn't an etherium founder that there wasn't credible evidence that it was in the theory and founder because they understood that if I was in a theory of founder I would be sufficiently novel to have a page so they were trying to get rid of that this is what we're dealing with with Wikipedia it's it's it's great it's just great it's just like it's like Kafka designed a website and and this and they said go have fun with it it's some it's just a basket of Horrors there has to be something better there absolutely has to be something better and I'm just I'm just having fun listening to it I like every now and then the editors we were trying to create content for the community are messaging me and saying like this stuff is unbelievable and I was like yeah you're right it's an exercise in patience why isn't card on oh I which came part of the w3c consortium yet I which key is going to join the w3c we were waiting until we came a full US company and we are now in IO G will join w3c in 2021 we're also joining hyper ledger we recommended that the Cardinal foundation join as well and that we can make meaningful contributions the web payments and the interoperability committee the inter ledger committee but I believe very firmly that the w3c is a good vehicle it's not perfect but it certainly is very effective and low-cost vehicle for Standardization so we're definitely joining that hey Charles are you a Formula one fan and not so much I really admire the engineering and the people who do that stuff and I've taken the Lamborghini out on tracks I got it up to 184 miles an hour it was a lot of fun probably too fast but but I haven't really gotten to car racing unless I'm doing it myself I have a friend who has a McLaren and we go at it I think that's like 300 kilometers an hour for those of you in metric Land any collaborations with stellar no but I do have a lot of respect from people at the cellar team Jed's good guy and David Missouri's real smart guide - there's some good people over there we occasionally run into them in Africa they did the Kafar Eeyore khofifah coffee project in Ethiopia and a few other things there's actually a lot of really good people in this face you know there's so much passion and drama and maximalism and this is a scam and that is a scam but you know if you actually sit down with these people have dinner with them lunch with them drink with them you have a lot of fun you know it's a good conversation usually and we're all basically the same into motorcycles I used to be ida Ducati SR - monster I'd love that thing I wrecked it four times cool Fifi yeah there we go is cardinal hydra gonna have routing problems like the Lightning Network you know there's a lot of great research on routing and this is one of the reasons why it takes a little bit of time to roll these things out there is a natural routing candidate set that has bonding behind it and it's explicitly known by the network because of the delegator x' and stake poles and so forth and so it's actually a lot easier to solve the routing problem particular with with Hydra then it would be in vanilla lightning on top of Bitcoin as the Bitcoin kind of works against you whereas Cardno and/or Boris kind of works with you in that respect so it's actually quite big quite easy to work with that Charles any is Michael Peyton Jones still working with you yes yeah Plutus is going along pretty fine we'll have a big update on Plutus at the summit virtual summit just switch from a molten tar monster number three video to this video when MMA fight I'm first you have my my sincere sympathies I'm very sad that you got the brain damage from going into that world I'll give you a little bit of time to recover you know from from what's happened there there will be no MMA fight I could not care less about intent MTM number three he's a nobody he had his one shot to be somebody and actually have something and he blew it he's not in a position to make any demands of us any more so than the crazy homeless guy masturbating in the streets probably end up that way I and that's all that needs to be said about that are you the real Justin Sun hit Justin Sun actually like him you know it I don't take a position on Tron or nod outside of the fact that when they forked the theorems code they should have used mantis it was boneheaded to go with the Java client but neither here nor there but Justin's been nothing but nice and pleasant to me every time I'm I've met him and he's never said anything negative about us and his community for the most parts very positive and pleasant when they talk about us they don't come in to our forums she opposed us and say we're horrible human beings you're scammers they just kind of do their own thing I so you know it Tron is a project like any other and it's following a very Chinese model of innovation of of accusation go acquire things until you have innovation if it works it works if it doesn't work okay I mean people buying in that ecosystem live within that ecosystem and Justin wakes up every day I talk in his book and pushing his thing and he does attempt from time to time to collaborate and if the space was like that it would be a lot more pleasant what I disliked in the space is that people seem to think that if they disagree they have to be disagreeable as a huge problem huge problem is it's so counterproductive guys it's okay to think that my ideas are bad our protocols aren't going to work and that Cardno is not going to be a successful product that's fine okay vote with your wallet with your feet but with your internet time go somewhere else well what's not okay is to say that because of these things everybody who's connected to Cardno is a dishonest evil person and we're all horrible human beings and we're out to steal money from Grandma just because you don't think something's going to work doesn't necessarily mean that the people on the other side of it are bad evil people I remember working on the Ron Paul campaign we had very strong obvious disagreements with the Democrats because we were on the Republican side right and I remember being in Iowa I and the people working on the Obama campaign in the Clinton campaign we're doing the Grassley going all 99 counties they were just as tired just as worn down as the people around the Republican side now obviously very strong political differences here and we thought that they were going to take America down the road to hell but at the end of the day we were both in the same position tired worn down and like operating on nothing in the gas tank because we were fighting for our respective beliefs and a lot of the cases you could go have coffee with them and because you had common experiences and you're in common industry that's the way the world should work disagree without being disagreeable the people who don't believe in the things you believe in have different values than you that doesn't mean they're evil and it doesn't mean they're here to screw you you judge people objectively if you think something's a scam then that's a very high bar okay just because a business fails or an idea doesn't work doesn't make it a scam it's only a scam if there's intent and it's clear that people in the project know that it's not going to work and if you see people saying things that they know are lies and you can prove that you know Kay that's a scam that but this is why I spoke out against big connect and one coin in these things because it was obvious you could look at the economics the structure how they were selling and how they were presenting it and how they would respond to criticism but at the same time I I have huge huge grievances with EOS and cerium and Bitcoin and I've called them out when I say they're saying things I don't think are honest but I never once say that dan Larimer is a criminal he's not we have strong disagreements about the way we think things ought to be and we leave it at that strong disagreements and the communities will decide and we'll see which one ends up right but I don't for once believe that damn is sitting there singing to himself boy I'm so glad I defraud it all these people he didn't you know he doesn't think this way he honestly in his mind believes that what he's doing is right and the project he's building is going to be successful or at least has a better shot at being successful than my project comes at Alec's project can the rest of the gang and that's okay and every now and then we can collaborate and work together and talk to each other and learn from each other and every now and then we have to kick each other in the face competitively it's a way that world works but we don't have to be disagreeable about it for the most part we haven't been with notable exceptions and yes Epstein didn't kill himself norm Cardno in 2030 a theory morale grant I believe neither if we're still around in 2030 which I believe me will be that it'll be the digital dollar from the US Federal Reserve and we're going to win that one hello from from sunny Arvada Colorado it was a very warm and beautiful day good day for a drive Arvada Colorado they had the avada Art Center there I used to take pottery classes when I was a kid oh this is a good question right here from Jimmy Anderson how do you prevent the ledger from becoming too large with 1000 transactions per second well will it be many terabytes of data in the future inevitably you will converge to a situation where the blockchain basically becomes too large to be a replicated artifact this is one of the fundamental failings of Bitcoin and one of the reasons why Bitcoin core is trying to keep the block size as small as possible because they understand that if the block size gets too large too much goes on chain you lose a property called inclusive accountability so inclusive accountability is this idea that everybody has the capability at least in principle of checking each other's homework so you can look at the blockchain I can look at the blockchain we can go through the whole thing and I can verify the same level of veracity and truthfulness as you can if you get to a situation that only one actor can have that entire history then you start losing that property that inclusive accountability you no longer have the ability for everybody chose homework now there are things you can do to get around this and you have to do all of the above so three things one you want to treat the resources of the blockchain as a precious commodity that's what block stream is doing but I think they've gone too far I think the calling cars is hurting their ecosystem by restricting their block size it should grow and it should grow at a reasonable rate and they're like real life metrics that are kind of like the Moore's Law equivalent of Network capacity and storage and I even told that in fact this nobody listens to me that you could I think use to create a model to allow the block size to gradually grow over time just like we have other metrics like the Bitcoin hang for example another bad design you never want to build a system where you have a dramatic event that makes everybody lose half their money for profit you know it's like why would you design a system that have sudden drops you should have a continuous curve instead of a discrete step function but anyway getting back to it one you treated like precious resource so how we do that as saying though the base ledger has a lot of capabilities but then take a lot of the stuff that is lower economic priority like micro transactions or high-frequency stuff and push those things into lit level to solution I think there's wisdom there as long as the level to solution is censorship resistant has the same privacy guarantees and is also open participation so Hydra mostly accomplishes this in its design okay - you need to use fundamentally different cryptographic primitives to secure your system in particular the concept of a snark recursive snarks are great for this where instead of saying show me everything you say show me a proof of what you've done is legitimate and all I need is to check what you've done against the proof and if I have just a little bit of information I know it's great so the project that's pushing this the heaviest is called the coda protocol co da and there they are trying to implement halo but Z cash has come up with some ideas and we're actually working on these ideas at i/o research and where it's is beginning days so it's not like we have a final solution yet but it's a super important thing now the advantage here is that these proofs are independent of the size of the shared state so you could have a massive UT EXO you could have a massive blockchain and you still be able to use the system with these proofs that are very small like megabytes two kilobytes I in practice and with the same level security as if you had a petabyte of data so that's absolutely amazing 3 you have to move from a replicated system to a distributed system - or to a decentralized system you have to distribute chunks of the chain to many different people and you have a shard of the data as opposed to the whole thing and you can always reconstruct with high availability guarantees anything you want on demand you have to do all three of these things and if you do all three of these things your system will be pretty good you probably should also implement some notion of economic garbage collection it's super controversial topic but it's something that needs to be done so you prune transactions out or you prune dead currencies out or things like that but you have to be careful about how you do that it's why we didn't for this five-year contract decided to do that we wanted to have a community for the next five years to have that discussion with to figure out the optimal solution and try to make it an industry-wide solution but if you can do those three things then you'll have a sustainable system because you can grow to any size and anybody can use it and have inclusive accountability you could wrote a nice eyes and any piece of history you're interested in will be available on demand and there's some economics behind that to make that possible and you can wrote any size but your growth rate is not stupid because you're emptying garbage and you're also not putting a bloat on the chain you're putting economically essential things on the main system so that's what you have to do if it gets the petabytes size it's not simple no protocol does this none zero zilch it's a super hard problem and it's a multidisciplinary problem you have to have miracles and data structures and miracles and distributed systems theory and cryptography miracles and a lot of network work because you're talking about a network that's gonna be moving a lot of data so it's it's a hugely hugely ambitious context the kind of thing I would love to solve over the next five years and we would have a gargantuan competitive advantage over everybody else and that's what would get us to a billion users or at least give us the ability to service a billion users thanks for the answer number 2d still me number three yeah you do because just because you can verify that what you're seeing is right because you're talking about an enhanced transaction which may have smart contracts and an embedded legal DSL and metadata and on other things you'll know that two properties are preserved one property of existence so the existence of the token so the asset you're looking at does exist and to that it hasn't been double spent the non-existence of a double spend you can prove those two things with a zero knowledge proof but it doesn't show you the history which may be relevant for an out-of-band regulatory scheme or things like that or compliance requirements that's especially true with security tokens so you need the ability to recall information on demand so that high availability is is required and also it's just a philosophical thing it's like you're gonna throw history away but you know this is economic data it's very important to preserve it that's what's Satoshi was right about that why was yellow shelved there were three requirements for that high-risk high-return project one was a demonstration that semantics based compilation was fully automated two was a demonstration that Kay had reached a certain level of maturity that it would be usable as a mainstream product and then three that performance of the machine generated back end would be reasonable not a hundred times or a thousand times slower than a handwritten implementation perhaps with an order of magnitude of that an enormous progress was made for SBC enormous progress was made in the rewriting of the Kay backend and Haskell an enormous progress was made with speeding up and optimizing machine generated code but we didn't hit all three targets and then we had to cut the budget somewhere because we went from dollar twenty eight and a much more vicious roadmap coming out of my own pocket to getting back to the original intent of the contract and so we decided that it would make sense to temporarily retire Kay in its introduction into the cardinal ecosystem into a later date see the thing is @rv yella grigory these things are independent of us and whether I say it or not grigory is gonna still write papers about Kay he's gonna still work on Kay he's gonna still optimize things and he has considerable resources to do that graduate students postdocs commercial contracts with companies like Boeing and so forth so there's funding there to keep doing his research and whether we pay for it or not he's going to do some of that research himself to localize that poll yella into Cardno of course that is something we'd have to work with him on now that a Treasuries coming again this is becoming another priority and I would love to see completion of the chimeric ledger design and a reintroduction of yella yeah into the roadmap post-2020 III very firmly believe that SBC and K is a fundamentally amazing thing for computer science and for just maintenance of these systems I mean literally all you'd have to do to give somebody access to your new programming language for smart contracts would be write the case semantics submit them to the blockchain and then suddenly it can auto build all your tooling your compiler and these things and if we ever updated yellow from yellow version 1 to 2 you don't have to rewrite your compilers to do that it's just not the case with Java land and dotnet land and so forth so there's real good reason why this guy at a top computer science school spent 15 years of his life figuring this stuff out and created things like reach ability logic for it it was it was fundamentally good science is just that we set objective milestones and we didn't achieve those milestones within the window that we needed to achieve them and it was certainly true that if funding was unlimited resources were unlimited I would have definitely renewed it and pulled it in it's faster but because those resources were in limited we couldn't do that another was the rena research if we had an additional five to ten million dollars we could have pushed far deeper into rena world than we did with our network protocol and and do things so so you know this is just the reality of running these things you have high aspirations and then reality kicks in and you have to make difficult choices about what to really focus on in the roadmap and where you can cut it responsibly the iPhone was no different you know they launched it without an app store or 3G and they reintroduced these things when they could but they were certainly on the original road map of the iPhone you just couldn't get to it to get that product launched in 2007 no I am NOT a Muslim worship Odin [Music] yeah it's definitely true about so many factors playing in it I mean this says this is the tough stuff about these things it's like it's always good to have these but god it's so complicated and you know there is very strong philosophy in computer science especially in the programming language world there's the imperative guys and object-oriented guys and you got the functional guys and that's like oil and oil and water they don't mix very well and they just look at the world really differently and it was really difficult to try to merge those two together in a harmonious way and I and I give Manuel Chekov Rd and Gregori both a lot of kudos for having saintly patients to manage their respective teams and do that but but unfortunately you know you have to pick and choose your battles and the DSL driven approaching and the Plutus driven approach is incredibly powerful and it's something wholly unique to cardenal and frankly it's probably how smart contracts should be done on Bitcoin had Satoshi been a PL expert then I frankly feel that that would have already been done that would have been the approach we have had that capability but he obviously wouldn't and so we didn't but I mean Plutus is great what are your thoughts about neural link I think it's probably one of the greatest inventions in human history if you think about information if you think about information you know the problem that we're constrained with is that evolution has only given us a very limited medium for input we have our eyes or ears you speak you know we can touch and these are fundamentally low bandwidth channels imagine having the world's best graphics card but then using that in a very old port like for example you plug it into like a USB port or something like that a USB 2 port or something no matter how powerful that card is locally because the communication channel between the card and the computer is so slow you are bound to that medium so we think in language we think in pictures we think in audio and these are all low-bandwidth in a certain respect and we haven't invented languages that are higher bandwidth there's been some attempts to do that now and like the sapir-whorf hypothesis talks about this but anyway neural link is saying we're going to now drill a hole into your head we're gonna put wires into your brain somehow make that work and not kill you or make you crazy and then suddenly you can now utilize a high bandwidth channel that is potentially three to five orders of magnitude higher than the channel that you use for speech for for hearing touch these types of things and the power of this is that if it works it means you can take a very complex concept like I don't know Weinstein's theory of everything or the I'm Stein's general theory of relativity or something you to super complex concept that would take months of difficult study to understand the basic concepts of and then package that in a new way and transmit it to somebody and have them get it in a way that's a thousand times ten thousand times a hundred thousand times faster that's the hypothesis of neural link at its core everything else aside now this is generation 10 generation 20 of the technology but if you look at the evolution like cell phones you get a new generation every 18 to 24 months so generation 10 is 240 months that could be 20 years from now and there's already a population or you get to play with that everybody's okay with that there are millions of people in the world there are quadriplegics paraplegic severe epileptics neural problems with their hands other things that these devices will be able to be a therapeutic intervention just like deep brain stimulation is for people with Parkinson's and so forth and it's a therapeutic intervention that's significantly better than the incumbent technology so there's a very strong biomedical incentive for implanting this in a cohort that will give you all of the data that you need to get to generation two and in generation three and eventually if they'll be Generation X which goes from medical to recreational recreational means you go from thousands and tens of thousands high expense to millions low expense and they're implanted okay if you do that uh-huh that's a game-changer because they can be easily inserted easily removed and every 24 months people will start upgrading these links just like they do their cell phones and it's inevitable at that point for these high bandwidth information channels to work and you say well what can I do with it access control passwords identity management you can basically telepathy you can think and then communicate to other people like that and it's trans language so you can train you can do empathy sent emotions to people there's really no limit you can control a computer with your mind so you could think to type so you're thinking and words appear on your word document it's it's pretty insane you can control lights in your smart home so you just you can open your door like you have almost telekinesis in this respect it's it's it's it's really crazy what neural link has the potential to do what makes me most excited about neural link is how quickly they've been able to iterate through technology how many chips they've done over 12 chip designs and 36 months being in the hardware business ourselves it's like we fully appreciate that that is a very very exceptional thing and they have a very good team at that company so it's one of those technologies that that I've been watching with an incredible amount of anticipation I will not be a first generation tester but none of you will be because it's a medical device in the first generation but certainly over time that device will be important to bring in now that said there are substantial security concerns there are substantial concerns about privacy this is not a technology that society is prepared for much like when CRISPR came out it created a revolution in bio engineering and people are saying we'll wait in twenty or thirty years this technology could be used to make bio weapons in a small lab at a very low cost with people who have moderate skillsets instead of a giant government lab super high skill sets very expensive okay so barriers to entry go down cost goes down and what does that functionally mean it means that you can do really horrible things on the asymmetrical side so super careful about this technology and there's a big wisdom gap with it so we must approach it cautiously have you ever played Guild Wars I did it was actually I think the first free MMORPG say a very good game and a virus world what is the best profession to have futurist tell everybody it's all gonna get better by the way I haven't broken my my sobriety it's a dry year I do a dry year in a wet year this is Virgil's handcrafted vanilla cream it's a cream soda it's just sugar terrible for you terrible for you but not alcoholic which Starcraft racist Charles you even have to ask that come on Protoss we live friar described well if it's any consolation the wings of Liberty campaign of starcraft2 was better than the other two campaigns heart of the swarm and shadows of the void were just terrible and in that order increasingly terribleness they just did not end that game well and they completely screwed up the Xel'Naga so I'll give you that and yeah serger great but let's be honest here the dirt were just a crude copy of the tyranids from Warhammer come on it's true and the Terran heads were far far better executed than the Zerg were executed well you still do a maze after you launch le yeah we'll have more to talk about what does a big project besides cardio you are working on wouldn't you like to know did you ever play EverQuest or EverQuest - i did play EverQuest years and years and years ago in fact the creator of EverQuest unfortunately died it's really sad um you know gaming doesn't get enough credit yeah we tend to have this stereotype in society where games are just for fat nerds to sit around and just do stuff but let's really think about this there's just two dimensions of gaming I think are incredibly undervalued one dimension is that games are the last storytelling medium where you really truly get everybody's attention I was at the movie theater before this quarantine happened watching a movie and I had a girl to the left to me and another teenager to the right of me I was at the movies alone and both of them while watching were looking at their phones texting people while the movie was going on I'm just like what why are you even here like where I'm here in the movies to watch a movie to see a story why are you here why you're hot you're half distracted you're like snap chatting with somebody while watching the movie and the same is true television the same screws radio all of these different mediums even in conversations when you're talking to people the other person is just like Homer Simpson's brain da da da da da it's just just doing stuff right it's not real very few people are fully engaged but then when you look at games this is one of those examples where people get lost in them so much though that they can spend countless hours enthralled connected deeply they're in the moment so it's the last storytelling medium that we have where you have the undivided attention of your audience and that is so undervalued and there are great examples of where this is so powerful like the God of War franchise for example they're you know you're following Kratos going from just us really angry Spartan dude who was going on a crazy revenge trip all the way to an old man who is looking for redemption because he did legitimately really fucked-up horrible things and you feel for him and you just want it to work out and you know it's not going to work out and then he's got this kid and you're just like oh god how is this gonna happen and you're just emotionally connected to this character and you and you know just like they're you're in the driver's seat living this experience feeling this experience with Kratos and you have these great scenes like when Baer McCready did echos of an old life that soundtrack when Kratos is taking the the old blades that he had when he was killing gods and Greece and he has to grab these things because so that he can go to hell and use them it's just like wow it's like he threw his whole past away and now he has to go right back to where he started this something you'd expect to see and really high-quality cinema really high-quality stories great books that kind of come back again and again and you're seeing it in a videogame and everything the lighting the sound the experience is lined up perfectly and that's 2018 like where the is that medium gonna go up by 2030 so it's the best storytelling medium and is just getting good because of VR cuz graphics look at the Unreal 5 engine you tell me that that's not going to be fun to play with the other dimension is that we have all these sports like football and in baseball and basketball and various things that people can play competitively and it's the most part most people don't engage in that on a daily basis you do when you're young you play hockey and these things or whatever and then when you get older you kind of get out of it when you watch it on television so it's a passive action you look at competitive eSports everybody can play dota they can play League of Legends they can play overwatch they can play multiplayer games and engage with other people and socialize with other people and even though they can't play at the high competitive level they still can play the exact same game that the other people are playing and potentially with millions of people all across the world and gain new experiences this is unique to gaming and there's just nothing else in society that exists that has those two things that that deep intensive narrative connection and then that ability to play with people all over the world various ages and skill sets and every now and then you actually interact with people Bill Gates for example is an avid Xbox player so if you're playing xbox live game there is a potential that the person on the other side is Bill Gates the same for many politicians the same for many captains of industry Elon Musk for example is known to play Fallout and other games and some competitive games online so there's a potential very small of hermo that on the other side of the television you're actually playing against Elon Musk think about that so I do love games from that perspective but I think they got a bad rap because they were just tragically misunderstood now I'm going to two hours so let's get a good question in come on give me something good guys what do you do the dry year wet year thing if you're a CEO and you travel all around the world and especially in this industry there is a huge incentive to drink socially and otherwise so you do the dry year wet year thing just to remind yourself not to descend into alcoholism and it's it's big big big dividends I already talked about Dan Larimer sorry Steve said nice things about him any move towards privacy legacy addresses no not in this iteration but we are looking at vanity addresses because you can control the prefix in the back thirty-two standard and be super cool for asset issuers to have their own addresses for their assets and for people to use different asset different prefixes for different things like C mean for card auto maintenance C test for that so we are starting some discussions about what flexibility we have with that standard for prefixing are you planning on occurring at a centralized exchange mayhaps i'd have to say between the meditation and the dry year you seem to be the paragon of moderation and stoicism I assure you I have my vices that said I have been trying to gradually add more suffering into my existence recently I've started using a Schottky mat it's also known as a bed of nails I'm using the plastic one right now but it all upgrade to an actual bed of nails at some point the future and I'm slowly getting back into cold therapy I was doing cried yet I was doing the the liquid nitrogen bath where you go and stand naked in the liquid nitrogen chamber for a few minutes and freeze yourself it was like negative 200 degrees or something I was getting good at that but then the quarantine shut the place down so I have to get some other supplier and wim HOF method is certainly interesting so I'll get back into that there's this you can always find more ways of torturing yourself and I seem to be pretty good at that I do enjoy it must be a closet masochist what do you think about AMD competition right now I'm not exactly sure the question is that just a general competitive nature between the two companies or is there a particular competition that they're doing if you're talking about just a general competitive nature between the companies in terms of their projects I think that Andy made some incredibly clever bets on manufacturing in architecture and those bets are playing huge huge dividends for them lisa is is a great CEO she's done a phenomenal job at AMD attracting good talent making good strategic bets and really unifying their product lines in a way that it's meaningful for that company and the very fact that Rison is where it's at and now it's the best laptop processor around is is pretty cool and that's a testimony to how far they've been able to go since prior leadership so a big fan of that but you know Intel is an incredibly strong company they're led by brilliant people they have good management processes like okay ours so you can't count a company like that out they can get back in the game very quickly and they have before the last time we saw him D on top this aggressively was during the old days if you remember the AMD FX series the FX 51 and 53 and they were just kicking and telling the teeth until until double down on the Centrino line and brought out the core until core duo by the time Core 2 Duo and the i7 came out it was over Charles I'm a programmer I'd like to start to learn program with Cardno how do I start we'll have a lot for you at the virtual summit in the meantime I'd recommend downloading the Haskell book and starting there it's a good way to familiarize yourself with the paradigm of which people will be writing code in our space and that's a batteries included experience his McAfee privacy pause ghost coin you know John McAfee has a good way of ending it he's one of the most curious people in the cryptocurrency space he's charismatic as hell and incredibly fun to interact with talk to watch and it's just a shenanigans guy wherever mcafee go shenanigans follow you know it's like just it's like a drama factory and he's almost like the Willy Wonka you know he's just like what is he gonna make next what craziness is gonna come out of mcafee brain and McAfee says stuff I know who Satoshi is or I know this or I'm gonna do this or I'll eat my dick and he runs for president he just does stuff and no matter what he's gonna do stuff and I enjoy it I really do I think is it's a lot of fun in the industry where you have to be very careful about this is that there are high standards and bars to certain claims so it's one thing to run for president it's one thing just stay stay stuff it's one thing to claim you know Satoshi or whatever okay it doesn't really impact your life no it's another thing to say I've built something that's private okay if you claim that that's fine but we have very specific standards about that and those standards anybody can try to achieve it's not it's not like an ivory tower or something like that the Monaro guys get to play just as much as the sea cash guys and they follow different approaches and they're both making meaningful progress there okay however there are really strong definitions about link ability and your ability to do naanum eyes and and just basically how you build your anonymity said and the assumptions about how these cryptographic primitives work whether it be a ring signature as urology proof or whatever they have to be very very very careful about and even small flaws in the way that you do things can undo the entire system and in some cases in the worst of possible ways where not only doesn't undo the system it actually gives you less privacy than Bitcoin can okay so you have to be super careful about this I in the thing that I disagree with McAfee the most about is that he tends to do things in a way that doesn't follow Orthodox words productive for everybody like we have trip cost principle which says the security of a crypto system should only rely upon the secrecy of the keys you don't office Kate the protocols in the system it's just a bad idea you don't get anything from hiding the crypto system you're using so when you say things like proprietary cipher a proprietary crypto or we can't trust the NIST suite or something like that that's this hogwash you of course you can trust in a sweetie first it wasn't even built by the US government was built by independent cryptographers we're looking for fame and glory being able to tell their friends that they got to figure out the crypto that the NSA will end up using okay so you can trust these protocols there in the open domain they're peer-reviewed and people literally build careers by finding ways to break them or cause problems for them huge huge brownie points believe me whenever there's a problem with Intel SGX every time I go to CCS or your crypto crypto there's somebody with a paper telling the world about that problem okay you can't hide a secret in this space so anybody who endorses proprietary protocols or opaque protocols or in-house protocols get a little concerned about if the process is not right second if you claim you have a privacy coin the privacy coin has to be built with very specific definitions and very specific standards that have to be able to stand in the scrutiny amongst the community of people who worry about privacy for a living and in general they're your allies if you engage them correctly not your enemies or competitors so I get a little concerned when I see McAfee make these claims like I'm gonna build this new thing whether it be a hardware device or it be a new cryptocurrency and then I don't see the next follow-on to that by the way I hold everybody to this standard not just him for example David CIAM David is a legend he's a brilliant cryptographer in his work is one of the founding fathers of work for big blockchain and Bitcoin invented digi cash for example so David's recently created a project I think it's called elixir and there's not a damn thing I can understand and I've told David to his face that I don't get what he's doing and I can't understand it and I think he needs to do a better job of explaining it and going through the proper peer-review process I also years ago had dinner with Silvio McCauley and I said by the way there was some things in el gran that need to be cleaned out he said yeah yeah we'll get around to it and to Silvio's credit he did and he published more papers and he hired great engineers and they've done some phenomenal work there too David's not so credit he has yet to fix all these holes that exist there or at least comprehension things that exist there so I applied the same standard to McAfee if he's throwing his hat in the ring that I apply the Silvio McCauley that I apply to David charm that I applied to Dan Larimer tough italic and the rest of the gangs so you know we wish him well and we hope that it turns out to be a something novel and meaningful and it's a great product for the space to study and understand but as a consumer of these products my warning to you is make sure that people are held to a very high standard because at the end of the day it's your privacy it's your identity at the end of the day it's your money and you need to do your own research and you need to think about these things ok so all that all that said it's been a fun ama thank you guys so much for attending I really appreciate it and you know next time we'll have more to say the Pioneer test that's been just exactly what I expected it to be it's going from revenant to to maybe something a little bit more graceful and next week hopefully will no longer be revenant
